Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Mercurius]

I think this attitude is the real problem here, frankly.

It's kind of outrageous that people...

Your argument is utterly hypocritical...

you're policing people's ability...

It's also amusing to hear someone claim...

to imply...is just nonsensical in that context.

...you deciding you're the victim

That is ridiculous. Ludicrous. Laughable.

Just wondering...is this carefully considered use of language?

 

[Mercurius]

As I said up-thread, shaman has a distinct meaning, different from priest, cleric, holy leader, and pretty much any other word in the English language (no matter how it was acquired).

There are people of all cultures and ethnicities that engage in shamanic practice, which by and large involves "entering" or "working with" altered states of consciousness.

If anything I'd like to see an official D&D treatment highlight this difference: that a shaman uses trance and even psychotropic substances to enter into an altered state (plane?) in which they can do their thing.

 

[Voadam]

Arguably the biggest icons for shamans in RPGs would be FASA's Shadowrun and White Wolf's Dreamspeakers from Mage the Ascension (and also the whole White Wolf magical spirit focus of Werewolf the Apocalypse).

 

[Hussar]

Shamans have had a varied life in D&D.

Already brought up is the 1e Dungeon Master's Guide where shamans were humanoid clerical spellcasters generally lower powered than PC oriented clerics, though a decent power up over standard humanoids.

In 1e Deities and Demigods this was carried forward even for giants, but American Indians used the full powered clerics just as Greek and Norse and fantasy pantheons did.

In Basic you had PC shaman classes in GAZ10 Orcs of Thar (plus a wicca class), GAZ12 Golden Khan of Ethengar, GAZ13 Shadow Elves, and GAZ14 Atruaghin Clans.

In 2e a lot of those Basic Gazetteers were dual statted for 2e as well plus there was a whole Shaman sourcebook that introduced a whole optional spirit realm for D&D cosmology. The Shaman is book is interesting having originally been planned for Mayfair Games's Role Aids line which was acquired by TSR after a lawsuit.

The Forgotten Realms 2e god book Faiths & Avatars added in a shaman class with spirit powers along with a mystic and crusader and divine spellcasting monk classes.

The 2e Complete Priest's Handbook there was a savage priest kit which was described as "a shaman of a savage tribe".

In 3e there was the spirit shaman in 3.5's Complete Divine. In the 3e and 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide the role of humanoid NPC shaman from 1e was genericized to the adept and applied to any race as a lower powered NPC class. I am sure somewhere there was a shamanic prestige class and I know of multiple OGL shaman classes.

In 4e the shaman class was from Player's Handbook 2, they were primal powered leaders and not divine power source.

In 5e I am not sure off the top of my head where there are shaman things other than some references in the MM.

And, realistically, this is the issue no? Shaman are not even divine? Shaman are always less powerful than clerics? Shaman only belong to evil, primitive races? Does anyone actually not see the issue here?

As far as 5e goes, the problem is solved in 10 seconds. Find and replace the seven instances of "shaman" with "druid" and you're done. It's more fitting, it works with the mechanics and it solves the problem.

Ten (or so) pages after I originally posted this solution and no one was able to tell me about any real, actual criticisms or issues with using "druid". So, how is this not solving the problem.

@TaranTheWanderer - I realize you think I'm being extremely rude and dismissive, but, I just solved the problem that has now dragged on for the past ten pages in three sentences. Is there any real problem with my solution?

It's just like the orc situation. Virtually everyone agrees with how to resolve orcs. It's easy. Couple of sentences get snipped and it's done.

The real problem is all the slippery slope hand wringing that's going on about how we're turning the works to "pablum". If snipping three sentences out of the game turns it to pablum, I'm going to say that the writing probably wasn't that good to begin with.

 

[Hussar]

Conversely, with shaman, you could expand the use of the term to encompass non-evil, non-primitive people in the game and thus remove the stigmatization. I'd suggest elves have shaman instead of clerics and possibly some of the other races like Firbolg and other fae related races. Thus, Shamanism becomes tied to fae which I don't think anyone would particularly object to.

 

[MGibster]

The real problem is all the slippery slope hand wringing that's going on about how we're turning the works to "pablum". If snipping three sentences out of the game turns it to pablum, I'm going to say that the writing probably wasn't that good to begin with.

I do agree that the work isn't being turned to pablum as I believe 5th edition is the best edition yet. But I do think we'll reach a point where the audience grows tired of hearing everything is problematic, fatigue will set it, and they'll become alienated.

 

[Hussar]

I do agree that the work isn't being turned to pablum as I believe 5th edition is the best edition yet. But I do think we'll reach a point where the audience grows tired of hearing everything is problematic, fatigue will set it, and they'll become alienated.

But, is everything problematic? So far, and I'll freely admit that I skip over stuff, so, I'm probably missing things, and I'm not on Twitter, I see orcs, drow, now shaman, Oriental Adventures, and maybe half a dozen different other things. Most of the solutions are a couple of sentences, at most.

The fatigue seems to be from people making this out to be so much more of an issue than it really is.

 

[Fenris-77]

Shaman and Druid aren't interchangeable. I don't have any issues with the word Shaman if it's used accurately either. I certainly don't think it comes pre-loaded with a whole ton of negative baggage. Not in general usage anyway. I also don't think this is a 14 page problem, but that's just me. Use the idea with respect and everything is fine.

 

[MGibster]

But, is everything problematic? So far, and I'll freely admit that I skip over stuff, so, I'm probably missing things, and I'm not on Twitter, I see orcs, drow, now shaman, Oriental Adventures, and maybe half a dozen different other things. Most of the solutions are a couple of sentences, at most.

It was hyperbole, but it often seems as though you can't swing a dead cat without hitting something problematic these days. Great. And now my vegan friends tell me the phrase "swing a dead cat" is problematic because it reinforces a carnivo-normative point of view that leads to the suffering of animals.

The fatigue seems to be from people making this out to be so much more of an issue than it really is.

I suspect we have a different idea about who is making an issue out of what.

 

[Maxperson]

And, realistically, this is the issue no? Shaman are not even divine? Shaman are always less powerful than clerics? Shaman only belong to evil, primitive races? Does anyone actually not see the issue here?

As far as 5e goes, the problem is solved in 10 seconds. Find and replace the seven instances of "shaman" with "druid" and you're done. It's more fitting, it works with the mechanics and it solves the problem.

Can you change shaman to druid with ease? Yes. There's no "problem" being solved, though.

Ten (or so) pages after I originally posted this solution and no one was able to tell me about any real, actual criticisms or issues with using "druid". So, how is this not solving the problem.

First, it's not a "problem." Second, why should non-Celtish people be able to appropriate Druids? You had an issue with Samurai. Why not also with Druids?