Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Jfdlsjfd]

Druids don’t, apart from Neo-Pagan reconstructionism.

BTW, why is the neo-pagan religious belief not worth protecting? Neodruidry started in England in the 18th century, that's not just a fad. Besides, the D&D druid certainly uses images closer to the one believed by the Neo-druid than the real celtic druids.

 

[Sadras]

I was very, very surprised to learn that modern Egyptians have some strong opinions regarding how Ancient Egypt is viewed. After all, they don't have any more continuity with that past than Spain does with the Celts.

This is true and is hilarious.

 

[Voadam]

This is hardly a good faith reading of the arguments. No one has argued cultural appropriation is okay “because they are white.”

I do not think in this thread but "punching up" versus "punching down" has been brought up multiple times recently in cultural appropriation discussions here.

 

[Umbran]

I understand nobody's put forth such an argument, but between this thread and others, there's a very strong correlation between race and ethnicity and who it's okay to appropriate from.

In the US, there's a very strong correlation between race and ethnicity and socio-economic status. Appropriating in general may not be great. Doing so from folks who are generally lower on the socio-economic ladder than you is an abuse of your higher status.

 

[Aldarc]

BTW, why is the neo-pagan religious belief not worth protecting?

Would you mind not pointing your loaded question at my face without at least putting the safety on first?

 

[Sadras]

I do not think in this thread but "punching up" versus "punching down" has been brought up multiple times recently in cultural appropriation discussions here.

Uppercuts have always been more popular. They were all the rage in Street Fighter II.

All you can

 

[Voadam]

Appropriating in general may not be great. Doing so from folks who are generally lower on the socio-economic ladder than you is an abuse of your higher status.

Is one view.

Another is that cultural appropriation is a subset of cultural exchange where there is a power or privilege differential. Some argue this is inherently harmful, others that it is not and you would have to examine the specific harm of the situation to say if it is problematic.

There are also other ways that people differ on what cultural appropriation is and means such as whether knowledge of the origin is important, whether the treatment is respectful, who profits, etc.

So whether the Beastie Boys (or Vanilla Ice, or Kid Rock, or M&M) using or profiting off of hip hop and rap, or D&D using and profiting off of the term and concept of Shamans, is a negative is viewed differently by different people.

 

[MGibster]

In the US, there's a very strong correlation between race and ethnicity and socio-economic status. Appropriating in general may not be great. Doing so from folks who are generally lower on the socio-economic ladder than you is an abuse of your higher status.

You have a valid point, but the prohibition against appropriation even applies to groups higher on the socio-economic ladder. Asians in the US have a higher median income and are more educated than any other group in the country. I realize income and education are but two metrics, but they're pretty important metrics.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What are the non-European properties of Pixies, Vampires, Banshees, Cyclops, Chimera, Dryads, Pegasus, Gargoyle, etc.?

I'm talking about a transformation that occurs between OD&D (1974) and the 1e AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (1979) that affects bugbears, ettins, giants, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, ogres, orcs, and trolls.

In OD&D only orcs have tribes. Gnolls and hobgoblins are led by kings. Goblins have a "goblin king" in quote marks. Kobolds are treated the same as goblins. Frost and fire giants live in castles.

The only hint of a non-European association is the orcish "tribe". In Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings the appearance of orcs is based on Asian peoples - "swart", "sallow", "slant-eyed", "squint-eyed" (LotR), "least lovely Mongol-types" (letter #210). The goblins in The Hobbit have one minor non-European association - their use of scimitars.

In the 1e AD&D Monster Manual (1977), hobgoblins, kobolds, ogres, and orcs live in "tribes". "Bugbears live in loose bands". "Goblins have a tribal society" though they still show "fealty to the goblin king". Gnolls live in "rapacious bands". "They have a so-called king… but his authority extends only as far as his reach."

The hobgoblin is depicted wearing the armour of a Japanese warrior. "There is a great resemblance between gnolls and hyenas." The hyena is an African animal.

Skin colours of the monsters under consideration are predominantly yellow, red, brown, and black:

"The skin of bugbears is light yellow to yellow brown — typically dull yellow."
"Hill giants have tan to reddish brown skins"
"Goblins range from yellow through dull orange to brick red in skin color."
"The hairy hides of hobgoblins range from dark reddish-brown to gray black. Their faces are bright red-orange to red."
"The hide of kobolds runs from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black."
"The hide of ogres varies from dull blackish-brown to dead yellow."
"Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration — brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen — highlights their pinkish snouts and ears."

Half-orcs, new to the AD&D MM, are "mongrels", a racial slur directed at people of mixed race -

D&D 5E - WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty...

www.enworld.org

Orcs outbreed other races and have 'genetically' dominant traits. Both were believed to be true of black people by early 20th century race pseudoscientists -

"Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs although they can sometimes (10%) pass themselves off as true creatures of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.)."

D&D 5E - WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty...

www.enworld.org

In the AD&D DMG bugbears, ettins, giants, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, ogres, orcs, and trolls have shamans. In the reading material of Gary Gygax and other TSR staff shamans would’ve been associated with Africans such as Solomon Kane’s friend, N’Longa and Native Americans - L Sprague de Camp, The Reluctant Shaman and Other Fantastic Tales (1970).

TSR’s RPG Metamorphosis Alpha (1976) may have been a significant influence here in making the connection between backwardness, tribes, and shamans. It is set on board a futuristic starship that has suffered a disaster. PCs live in tribes, which are led by shamans. "Radiation has caused all knowledge to be 'lost' and humans are in a state of semi-barbarism." "Later generations of humans lost all sense of identity, with the ship regressing into a state of savagery… The humans settled into a tribal way of life". A shaman also features in Sterling Lanier’s post-apocalyptic Hiero’s Journey (1973).

In the 1e AD&D DMG bugbears, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs have witch doctors, which in popular culture are sub-Saharan African magicians. The clerics of 1e MM tribesmen are also called witch doctors. "Primitive tribesmen are typically found in tropical jungles or on islands. They use large shields... These men dwell in villages of grass, bamboo or mud huts."

I conclude therefore that a number of humanoid monsters which in 1974 OD&D possessed almost no non-European associations have, by the 1979 1e AD&D DMG, been expelled from Europe.

 

[Voadam]

In the AD&D DMG bugbears, ettins, giants, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, ogres, orcs, and trolls have shamans. In the reading material of Gary Gygax and other TSR staff shamans would’ve been associated with Africans such as Solomon Kane’s friend, N’Longa and Native Americans - L Sprague de Camp, The Reluctant Shaman and Other Fantastic Tales (1970).

Weren't tribes and shamans also directly associated with European Picts in Howard's Conan stories?