D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

Remathilis

Legend
Given all this, where does the 'natural spellcaster' fit in? I suppose it could represent unearned, inherited power that comes as an accident of birth, which is basically sorcerers in a nutshell i guess. Several sorcerer-kings canonically have children (even though at least one is a giant mutant centipede thingy), so maybe it could work. But the other Athasian theme is that power always has a price. Whether it's service, or sucking energy out of the earth, or whatever, the price is always there. How you fit sorcerers (or even harder, bards) into that paradigm has always been more difficult for me to work out. The concept of inborn natural magic just flies in the face of everything having a price.

You know, I looked through the 3.5 Dragon Issue (319) and 4e DS guide again, and while they give a blurb on each class in 3.5, 4e is utterly mum about the topic of where classes come from, save the "no divine" axiom. I can give you a taste on a few classes though from 3.5:

BARD
While rare, bards do exist on Athas in small, well-organized groups known as troupes. Most bard troupes make their members wealthy not by their frequent performances in the service of nobles and templars, but in their clan-destine operations.
As arcane spellcasters with various other abilities, bards work hard to cover their magical abilities with their performances. Spending their lives hiding behind the facade of simple performers, bards learn the intricacies and techniques of covert activities, and as such make excellent spies and assassins. Bards try to keep their abilities secret, despite their fame and familiarity among nobles. Thus, the bard class is relatively unknown by most residents of Athas, as they are seen as mere performers.
MONK
Large monasteries for training monks don't exist in DARK SUN, and so the monks of Athas learn their techniques directly from lone. more experienced monks. Popular in the gladiatorial arenas for their skill fighting without weapons or armor, many monks make their living as relatively pampered slaves of powerful nobles and templars. A monk is seen as a less dangerous slave than a psychic warrior, yet one almost equally capable of providing unusual and crowd pleasing martial displays. Athasian monks have no problem using their myriad special abilities to impress a crowd. After all, a popular (and profitable) gladiator slave is a safe, well-cared-for one. Due to their popularity, monk gladiators are frequently freed in their later years, and most of them train other freemen in their ways. These free monks often follow their teachers into the arenas in search of wealth and further train-ing. Others use their skills to survive the harsh world outside the cities, finding their abilities and discipline boons in the chaotic and unpredictable sands of Athas.
PALADIN
Like the monk, a paladin relies on her discipline to make sense of a chaotic world. While others might panic when faced by some new and unexpected threat bursting from the sands, the paladin quickly assesses the situation and forms a plan of action. Athasian paladins don't worship any particular god. but they have a strong and unbending belief in the supremacy of law and goodness. Paladins are extremely rare in Athas for several reasons. The harsh nature of the desert world puts a high premium on flexibility and adaptability, neither of which the paladin is particularly known for. In addition, dragon-kings take umbrage at a paladin's unerring goodness and continuous striving for the freedom of city-states from the tyranny of dragon-kings. Finally, most paladins are loners, as many beings in Athas can't reconcile the needs of survival with the paladin's stubborn adherence to a strict code of morality.
SORCERER
Rarest of the spellcasting classes, sorcerers combine the flexibility of psions with the potentially devastating power of the wizard. The ability to become a sorcerer seems to occur randomly, and most of those who discover they have the gift do nor reveal it to anyone. Unlike wizards, who typically spend many years honing their craft, sorcerers generally gain their abilities suddenly, during adolescence. Without quite understanding the destructive power they wield, most youths who dis-cover their latent sorcery find it exciting and cast the most powerful spells they can. They often learn the difference between preserving and defiling magic the hard way. Because of the destruction wrought by defilers, and the difficulty in discovering who has the ability to cast sorcerous spells. every city-state has outlawed sorcery. Known and suspected sorcerers face execution. As a result, sorcerers have learned to hide their spellcasting, by masking their arcane gestures, whispering their verbal components, and hiding on their persons the strange materials and components they need to cast spells. Many attempt to pass themselves as psions, while bolder sorcerers carry a fake spellbook, knowing that the laws are slightly more lenient on wizards than on sorcerers.

Not to upset your Social Justice Allegory, but for two editions, they just kinda do. I guess Bards could represent community activism and organizing (the power of getting large groups of people to do stuff) while Sorcerers the power of self belief in the face of people who hate you for how you were born.
 

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Coroc

Hero
Well, we have a psychic sorcerer in playtests already, and you could say draconic sorcerers might be the last of an ancient bloodline from a sorcerer king and that wild magic is literally attempts to hack defiling to the extreme.

And
Draconic sorcerers hunted by templars sent by sorcerer-kings to be dissected to extract the secret of advancing as a dragon...

Interesting aspects, and maybe an option. What I like especially about it is that sorcerers do not need spellbooks, which are a nuisance in DS.
With DS you have to think about individual spellbook style for a wizard, and it most often will not resemble a book. It might be tattoos, or hair knots or something else which can be easily concealed.
Also for acquiring new spells, unless you have access to the local veiled alliance library this gets difficult to explain.

My homebrew take is that (besides some AE necrotic effect) defiling would give a wizard metamagic like a sorcerer based on his INT boon (Int boon= how many sorecerer points you get if you pull that off). This could be easily transferred to sorcerers.

But mainly arcane casters are not hunted for their bloodline but for casting arcane spells which ruins the environment even more, if you do not cast as a preserver. So I rather put away the need for a spellbook for wizards on Athas, and keep the wizard + defiling as the approach.
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
Given all this, where does the 'natural spellcaster' fit in? I suppose it could represent unearned, inherited power that comes as an accident of birth, which is basically sorcerers in a nutshell i guess. Several sorcerer-kings canonically have children (even though at least one is a giant mutant centipede thingy), so maybe it could work. But the other Athasian theme is that power always has a price. Whether it's service, or sucking energy out of the earth, or whatever, the price is always there. How you fit sorcerers (or even harder, bards) into that paradigm has always been more difficult for me to work out. The concept of inborn natural magic just flies in the face of everything having a price.

Sorcerers would be bound to the same defiling/preserving rules as wizards. The difference is that wizards choose to follow their path for power, while sorcerers are born with it, whether they want it or not.
 


I allow myself to copy the idea from Pathfinder 2 and sorcerers can be not only arcane, but divine or primal spellcasters. And I also the cult of the ancestors in DS, even allowed by the sorcerer-kings because even them notice the people need hope and reward or punishment in the afterlife.

Now I wonder about if a post-apocalypse survival farming RPG videogame set in DS would be possible.

* Should the elemental drakes from DS remade with age categories?

* I also allow links with the far realm, to create stories of daywalk horror linked with Lovecraftian myths (but most of these idols are only no-sentient daikaijus). I like the idea about the "gods" are the source of the divine magic, but this time they aren't the masters of the clergy, but their slaves.
 

Not to upset your Social Justice Allegory, but for two editions, they just kinda do. I guess Bards could represent community activism and organizing (the power of getting large groups of people to do stuff) while Sorcerers the power of self belief in the face of people who hate you for how you were born.
I normally treat Bard as psionic anyway − telepathic mind manipulators with telekinetic light/sound abilities. The shapechange and healing, are psychometabolic. Plus psychoportation. It is quite good for medieval psychic.

With regard to Social Justice − I kinda see the Bard as a "celebrity with cause".

If there is a price to pay, they burn up their social capital to push a cause. Then they have to ingratiate themselves to build their fandom back up again. Whereupon they burn it up again to push their cause.
 

My own version of DS bards is they aren't arcane spellcasters really, but a different source, mixture of primal, occult/psionic and mainly "glamour", the essence of the dreams.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
I think Dark Sun is a lot more interesting if the Sorcerer Kings are still around. The metaplot killed off most of them, so I think either set the game after Kalak's death, or contrive a new plot element to bring the Sorcerer Kings back to life. I mean, supposedly they have ruled for thousands of years, surely it would take more than that to finish them off?
Maybe just ignore the terrible metaplot and pretend it never happened?
The post pentad status quo really wouldn't be all that bad as long as the deep lore abut Rajaat, the blue age, and so forth is kept obscure/ambiguous in published material. Maybe throw in the vague suggestion of a canonical retcon--but never commit one way or another. Moreover, with a soft reset that jumped the timeline past the book characters' deaths from old age, there'd still be plenty of thematic Darksun to go around.

The take in my headcannon:
Dregoth will have laid to waste and occupied Raam (and most people think he's the original dragon). Sadira will be the faux sorcerer queen of Tyr--less evil but still an eccentric dictator. Tectuctitlay's "son" Atzetuk will be the new divine ruler of Draj, by dint of extreme psychic powers. Balic will be a strife-riven disaster, but with Andropinis still exerting weird extra-dimensional influence. Hamanu, Nibenay, and Lilali-Puy will all be right where we left them. And there's omnipresent religious strife between Dregoth and Lilali-Puy's cultists. All of that is a straight line from 2e's "Beyond the Prism Pentad", with only minimal effort to curtail the metaplot's sunshine and rainbows.

The big elephant in the room is that every single class is magical in the PHB and magic has serious setting restrictions in DS. You'd ideally have a full a Psion AND a psionic subclass for each class to take up the slack, but you're looking at a much thicker setting book once everything starts adding up.

Regarding classes, I'm not sure if we need to decide "all templars are warlocks". In the end, only Player Characters have a class, all the rest of the world is a stats-block... I did a lot of re-fluffing, and even those players that were DS veterans had no objections.

As @Delazar says, the elephant in the room is easy enough to lampshade. Not every class needs to have a clearly explained and justified canonical origin.

Give all the arcane classes a handwave by stating that Athas is OLD and tons of abstruse sorcerous traditions have accreted over its history. Your PC can be a Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, but the people of Athas don't have names for those classes; they only know the difference between defilers and preservers. Have a unified set of defiling rules that any arcane PC can use--including arcane tricksters and eldritch knights--and introduce a couple of defiler archetypes that leverage those rules. It never needs to become setting-relevent that the bard PC can use instruments as a spell focus, just handwave him/her as some weird kind of preserver and never have the party meet another one.

Also, allowing an eldritch knight in a Darksun party has the potential to make the setting themes stronger, not weaker. One more PC would have to resist the temptation of defiling and worry about being outed as a magic user--where before those things might only have mattered to the wizard player.

Most other classes are a much easier lift, and a few variant features--like the one @Delazar used for his paladin player--could be introduced to make them work. Again, with the caveat that a PC can be one but that, like the races excluded from Ravnica and Theros, they have no canonical place in the setting.
 

The RPGs settings are like the recipes in a restaurant, delicious but after in your own home your cook it in a different way.

I guess somes subclasses in DS could be changed, and arcana sources to be replaced with psionic or primal spellcasters. (sorry, but for me divine and primal magic aren't the same source in my games).

It's true in the pentad prims some sorcerer-kings were killed, but they could come back with divine magic. If WotC publishes modules we can forget the novels totally.

The canon says Athas is almost totally isolated from the rest of D&D multiverse, but I would like the idea defilers and refugees from Athas could appear in other worlds, causing new challenges for the natives.
 


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