D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

My own version of DS bards is they aren't arcane spellcasters really, but a different source, mixture of primal, occult/psionic and mainly "glamour", the essence of the dreams.

Yeah. I view the Bard mental magic as psionic, using the psionics of ones own mind as the magical source. But now I agree with you, that the Bard can be understood as various other sources too, and even blends of sources, depending on character concept and the setting that the Bard is in.



In the Players Handbook, nothing in the 5e Bard class description says the Bard is arcane. Elsewhere in the chapter on Spellcasting, there is a separate sidebar about the Forgotten Realms setting and its concept of the "Weave", that mentions the Bard in passing. So it appears that for the Forgotten Realms setting, its bards are use "arcane" magic. But Bards in other settings can use different sources of magic.

With regard to the source of magic, the Bard class is highly ambiguous. It is the magic of song. But the songs can be psionic mnemonics, divine music, primal trances, and so on. It needs the setting to make a determination, if any.

For example, going by old school Bard using an old school Druid spell list, the Bard can be understood as "divine" magic. Or "primal". Or 3e "arcane". Especially, charming and mental inspiration are "psionic", along with psychic intuititive divination being "psionic".

The Bard class is excellent for building diverse mythologically accurate concepts: Native American medicine (probably mainly primal?), North Asian shaman (psionic depending on ones own mind or a psionic-primal blend depending on the minds of surrounding natural features), Nordic Sami noaidi (psionic or psionic-primal), Nordic Norse volva (strictly psioinic), Celtic fili (psionic, maybe arcane because it includes potion making with primal ingredients). The Celtic bard (such as Merlin) arguably differs from the Celtic druid (which is priestly, thus divine, or perhaps the druid is a divine-primal-arcane blend, since its worship of Celtic gods appears to accompany traditions of weather oracles, primal potion making, or so on). Note, after British Isles became Christian the words relating to "druid" came to mean any kind of magic generally, including arcane protoscience and psionic mind manipulation. Meanwhile formerly druid families self-identified with the bards that Christian culture continued to admire. (I suspect, the historical bards must have been non-priestly academics, thus remained in good Christian graces.) So, for British traditions there is often the question of "which witch is which?"

In any case, I would use the 5e Bard class to represent (accurately!) hundreds of magical concepts across many reallife ethnicities around our planet.

If I was going to make a modern American "mythologically accurate" psychic healer, I would likewise use the Bard class using psionic magic.

The Bard class is so versatile. The character concept for a particular Bard depends entirely on which spells the Bard character chooses, the tropes and themes that emerge from these choices, and the context of the setting assumptions in which these spells operate and make sense.



It is ok for a class to be agnostic about which magical source it is using. After all, a same spell that occurs in a Divine Cleric list can also occur in an Arcane Wizard list. So the magic source that a spell uses depends. Likewise, the Sorcerer class can be arcane, divine, psionic, whatever.

The same goes for the Bard. The Bard class can be of any magical source, it depends entirely on the character concept during character creation. Similarly, different subclasses can explore a specific source more explicitly.


Regarding the versatility of the Bard class. Once one puts a lute in the hands of a Bard, it is pretty much death by D&D trope. However, if one makes sure to remove that lute, and instead focus on a shaman drum, fili satire genre, volva spontaneous song, military oratory, and so on, the versatility of possible concepts becomes extremely useful.
 
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Dark Sun Sorcerer

There are several ways to introduce the 5e Sorcerer class into a 2e Dark Sun setting:

• Arcane Draconic Sorcerer, as a mutant relating to the draconic magic of the Sorcerer Kings.
• Arcane Wild Sorcerer, resulting from Sorcerer-King magical experiments and coming to epitomize Defiling.
• Divine Soul Sorcerer, focusing on healing and deriving from the animistic Divine elemental magic.
• Psionic UA Psychic Sorcerer, being one of the many normal psionic options.

Probably other possibilities as well for the Sorcerer. The choice of one or more depends on personal taste. All of them can make sense within the setting.
 

• Arcane Draconic Sorcerer, as a mutant relating to the draconic magic of the Sorcerer Kings.
What if the Sorcerer Kings actually are Draconic Sorcerers?

They resulted from Wizard experiments to use arcane Defiling magic innately.

The Charisma of the Sorcerer coheres with the leadership skills of these Kings.

Thus there is an uneasy alliance between the Sorcerer Kings and the Defiling Wizard community who created these Sorcerer Kings. But otherwise the arcane magic is the same. The Sorcerer Kings still need to use the same material component (arcane focus) that the Wizards do. The Sorcerer class is especially good at elemental magic, but that actually coheres with 2e Dark Sun tropes relating to Templar.

For a player who wants to play a Draconic Sorcerer, they can be understood as a rare offshoot from the earlier experiments. If the Sorcerer Kings are Draconic Sorcerers, and if the DM wants, the Sorcerer Kings might even perceive the Sorcerer player characters as family relatives, heh, thus hunt them down to kill them as rivals to the throne.
 

In sum, regarding the above three posts.

The 5e Bard and the 5e Sorcerer are versatile classes. There are a number of good ways to include them in the original Dark Sun setting.
 

Would Templars be a sub-class of Warlock with Sorcerer-Kings as a Warlock patron?

Templars gain their powers from pacts with the Sorcerer-Kings to channel power from them, deriving their power ultimately from the unique connections the Sorcerer-Kings forged to the elemental planes.

It seems like that would be a way to work that later-edition invention into the Dark Sun setting.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Would Templars be a sub-class of Warlock with Sorcerer-Kings as a Warlock patron?

Templars gain their powers from pacts with the Sorcerer-Kings to channel power from them, deriving their power ultimately from the unique connections the Sorcerer-Kings forged to the elemental planes.

It seems like that would be a way to work that later-edition invention into the Dark Sun setting.
That's exactly what 4e did, so why not?
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Would Templars be a sub-class of Warlock with Sorcerer-Kings as a Warlock patron?

Templars gain their powers from pacts with the Sorcerer-Kings to channel power from them, deriving their power ultimately from the unique connections the Sorcerer-Kings forged to the elemental planes.

It seems like that would be a way to work that later-edition invention into the Dark Sun setting.

I would have gone with warlock with the Sorcerer-King pact as 4e did at first, but yesterday someone on Reddit quoted a little text from the DMG on a totally different subject, but it struck me as kinda fitting for Darksun.

You know how there's a lot of little hints in the corebooks about future projects? Well check this out:

''Modifying a class's spell list usually has little effect on a character's power but can change the flavor of a class significantly. In your world, paladins might not swear their oaths to ideals, but instead swear fealty to powerful sorcerers. To capture this story concept, you could build a new paladin spell list with spells meant to protect their masters, drawn from the sorcerer or wizard lists. Suddenly, the paladin feels like a different class. DMG p.287''

Does that ring a bell? :p

So my bet would be a Paladins with sorcerer spell list and 2 oaths:

  • Oath of the Sorcerer-King
  • Oath of Freedom

I also think we will see a remake of the Undying warlock and probably another nature-ish patron.

My idea is that sorcerer will be divided in 3 origins:
  • Dragon -> for those on the first steps of becoming a dragon.
  • Avangion -> a more druidic take on the divine soul to oppose the above option.
  • Psionic
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
What about the UA psionic Psychic Soul Sorcerer?

Actually, I don't know much about the psionic variants in non printed manuals. I see them as a little reflawored versions of existing classes for players wanting to add psionics in their more or less standard settings, which is a thing I generally I'm not much interested in.

Dark Sun, on the other hand, needs a full fledged psionic system. IMHO DS without psionics is like a piratesque setting without naval skirmish and boarding rules.

So, since there's no complete psionic system from WotC that I know of we're at te moment left to our own imagination.

The first and easiest solution that comes to my mind is simply renaming the Sorcerer as Psion. The Sorcerer's mechanics IMHO are sufficiently different from the Wizard and similar enough to the old feel of psionics (less powers known, more versatility in daily use) that i could live with that as a workaround until a Psionicist's Handbook comes up.

That leaves us with only the Wizard as an arcane class. Again, I could live with that, if we implement defiling/preserving as a feature that can be "activated" by the player at will. This could be a hinndrance for people that prefer Preservers and Defilers to be two different classes with different mechanics.

An other solution could be Wizards=Preservers and Sorcerers=Defilers. This has the advance of having different mechanics for the two approaches to arcane magic thar match well enought the feel of the lore, but on the other hand leaves us with no Psion class unless we design one and basically binds the players to choose one or the other approach at character creation time (plus more or less forcing people that like the mechanics of Sorcerers to be basically a bad guy).
 

So, the "Avangion" is an epic (level 20+) transformation of a preserver arcanist, analogous to the draconic transformation of the Sorcerer king.

Weirdly at least one official source fails to describe what this transformation looks like.

It has a somewhat ambiguous illustration accompanying the text. This image looks more humanoid in a wingsuit, while other images elsewhere look more Thri-Kreen insectoid in a wingsuit.

But the text itself seems to suggest that the form of the Avangion is made out of "light, water, and life-giving properties" (including plants?).

Maybe for 5e Dark Sun, the proto-avangion can be a relatively straightforward divine Soul Sorcerer, with shapeshifting options to become liquid water or incorporeal light, with the ability to spout watery wings for flight?

The avangion seems to be arcane, in the sense of being a Preserver. But it is ambiguously psionic as well, requiring psionicist levels. Likewise its affinity with the element of water and life, relates to divine. The magic source seems ambiguous. The 5e Dark Sun might do well to clarify its source, making it one, a choice of several, or an explicit blend.
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
Dark Sun Sorcerer

There are several ways to introduce the 5e Sorcerer class into a 2e Dark Sun setting:

• Arcane Draconic Sorcerer, as a mutant relating to the draconic magic of the Sorcerer Kings.
• Arcane Wild Sorcerer, resulting from Sorcerer-King magical experiments and coming to epitomize Defiling.
• Divine Soul Sorcerer, focusing on healing and deriving from the animistic Divine elemental magic.
• Psionic UA Psychic Sorcerer, being one of the many normal psionic options.

Probably other possibilities as well for the Sorcerer. The choice of one or more depends on personal taste. All of them can make sense within the setting.

All viable choices. After all the PCs are by definition exceptional beings, so while all your descriptions are more or less of exceedingly rare if not unique individuals, why should a player be barred by them.

The Divine Soul Sorcerer you describe is the closest thing I see for a to-be Avangion I can imagine.
 

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