D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Mistwell]

Just wanted to point out, you are looking at a fight against a solo enemy. Those fights are the ones the monk will tend to dominate even with the lower chance to stun.

No I am not talking about a solo enemy. I am talking about all foes, in groups or as solos. It's the average, with all the CRs mentioned listed there. I am no more talking about a solo than you were when you mentioned that range of CRs.

When you look at a group of 4 enemies the con score is going to be 2-5 points lower Per enemy than the values you get here.

No it is not. You're misinterpreting that list. A CR 8 foe for a level 8 party should have FOUR CR 8 FOES. Not solo. The CR system isn't build well for solos. If you wanted to challenge a Level 8 party with a solo, you should be picking around CR 12.

Then there’s the case of monks having control over what enemy they attempt to stun. That alone tends to improve odds considerably.

Now you're a moving target. We were talking about the odds you stun someone as often as you claimed you would. Stay on topic my man.

Then there is the issue that taking the average scores of all monsters printed is probably not the best Way to determine what scores you see in play. A better method would be to look at what enemies are present in published adventures and their proportions you will encounter them by character level.

OK, go ahead. If you don't like the work someone else does, then you're welcome to do the work you propose. But don't ask others to do your homework

 

[Flamestrike]

My goblins do NOT know hp and AC - neither do the players for that matter, But they do know, because they have experience and training, which targets are usually easiest to kill.

Ok, to your Gobin what is easier to kill?

An AC 19/ 10 HP sword?

Or the AC 16 (Chainmail) 8 HP War Cleric wielding it?

 

[Helldritch]

I know, in a one on one fight.

But if both characters were doing this against a similar enemy instead of against each other, the Monk's defence and DPS would drop harder than the Fighter's, and the Fighter would still have more HP than the Monk, especially if they use Second Wind. DPS and Defence is not THAT big of a drop mind you, but the HP difference hurts.

Monks really should have had d10, especially since they can't go all-in on CON without rolling amazing stats. It would give them basically 1 or 2 more points per level, nothing ground breaking, but it would close the gap.

Hmm...

How's that for a baseline? A Sword and Board Fighter with Dueling and no short rest resources left VS a similarly depleted Monk VS a similarly spent Rogue? If all three go into a fight like this, which one is more in trouble?

The rogue. He would not be able to sneak one on one (unless swash?) But then again, the monk, Kensai in our example, will be able to kite the other two with his greater speed and shoot arrows until they die. Again, one on one, the monk should win. Especially with missile deflection.

 

[Undrave]

Why is it so controversial to talk about the reality of the game - we all know more foes have better Con scores than other things, because Con is necessary for anyone. We all know it comes up a huge amount of the time. Why are we pretending the monk doesn't have this issue when we all know they do?

It really baffles me that this ALWAYS happens:

"Hey, Class X is weak at Y, it should get a buff."
"Shut up! Class X is awesome! I have fun with it! It's perfect! Stops trying to ruin my fun!"

Geez, people, relax. You didn't write the damn game.

 

[Flamestrike]

How's that for a baseline? A Sword and Board Fighter with Dueling and no short rest resources left VS a similarly depleted Monk VS a similarly spent Rogue? If all three go into a fight like this, which one is more in trouble?

I'd have money on the Rogue winning (they're resource neutral),

He can easily disengage and dash and pick off targets at will.

Bonus points if he's an investigative Rogue (makes ranged sneak attack much easier).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What I mean is that their strategies will differ.

They will use whatever strategies are most effective. I have not seen any argument that would make destroying weapons a more effective strategy for monks than for goblins.

 

[Flamestrike]

They will use whatever strategies are most effective. I have not seen any argument that would make destroying weapons a more effective strategy for monks than for goblins.

Your Goblin is toe to toe with my Fighter (chain mail, Greatsword).

It's your turn. Im trying to kill you and you me. What is the most effective strategy for you to win?

(Your parents words ring in your ears 'always attack the weapons!")

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Ok, to your Gobin what is easier to kill?

An AC 19/ 10 HP sword?

Or the AC 16 (Chainmail) 8 HP War Cleric wielding it?

Warriors with swords are more common than war clerics with swords. Under those circumstances they would attempt to destroy your cleric's sword, because their experience would tell them that usually attacking the weapon is better.

NB goblins certainly can tell the difference between a target in mail and a target in full plate.

 

[Undrave]

The rogue. He would not be able to sneak one on one (unless swash?) But then again, the monk, Kensai in our example, will be able to kite the other two with his greater speed and shoot arrows until they die. Again, one on one, the monk should win. Especially with missile deflection.

They wouldn't be going into a fight against each other, we're past that discussion, the Monk is good one on one. We're back to the discussion on baseline damage expectation.

Is a depleted Monk as strong as a depleted Fighter or depleted Rogue. No ressources that are restored on a rest at all, At-Will abilities only. How does their DPS or AC or defences, stack. If they're all on equal enough footing (say, less then 20% variance?), then from that point we can better judge if their rest-based ressources are plentiful enough or not.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Your Goblin is toe to toe with my Fighter (chain mail, Greatsword).

It's your turn. Im trying to kill you and you me. What is the most effective strategy for you to win?

(Your parents words ring in your ears 'always attack the weapons!")

What is your monk's intelligence again? 8?

You are only going to fight monsters that are more stupid than you? Good luck with that.