D&D 5E player knowlege vs character knowlege (spoiler)

One thing to keep in mind with these threads is that iserith is extremely pedantic about how he describes 5e gameplay.

Unkind. If I'm specific in my language it's because I'm paraphrasing or quoting what the rules say.

If you take the DM aside and ask if your PC would know about the lich and some of the events in the novel, then it's perfectly reasonable for him to have the player roll the intelligence (arcana or history) check even if there's no specific action being taken.

That's not reasonable at my table. I'm going to ask the player what the character is doing. If I don't have that information, I would have to assume or establish what the character is doing in order to adjudicate which is effectively playing the character for the player. That is not the DM's role.
 

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It’s all a matter of play preference. What you consider “cheating” isn’t considered that by others. So telling people that they allow cheating in their game is kind of rude. And also is factually incorrect as I don’t believe that you’ll find anything in 5e that says this is cheating.
Also, like... If something is allowed, it’s kind of by definition not cheating, yeah?
 

My statement was that foreknowledge can affect difficulty, but it depends on the design of the challenge. I don't think we need to get into any specific examples which tend to become a problem in discussions like these.

I will confess to having had other questions with waiting follow-ups... This one I was just actually curious what kinds of traps you found interesting enough to keep unchanged in the same location, and where foreknowledge didn't appreciably affect their impact.

To be clear, I'm not referring to "difficulty class." I'm referring to difficulty as in how hard or easy a given challenge is as a whole. Decisions by the players and DM plus luck affect difficulty. Foreknowledge can affect player decisions which can make the difficulty easier. Bad dice rolls, if there are any, can make difficulty harder.

I was picturing the difficulty of the task assessed as going into it. (As if one were assigning it something like a challenge rating). It didn't occur to me that it might have been the effect on the post-hoc assessment of how difficult it felt in retrospect. (As in, wow that combat was hard, we barely survived). Is the later the one you meant?

I don't really care.

I'm wondering if there is any connection to views on using foreknowledge in the game and how people feel about having it iwhen they approach books and movies.

That is an action the DM can adjudicate as it contains an approach to a goal which the DM can judge. Like any other action declaration, it may or may not be resolved with ability check. It is an example of active roleplaying.

And now I'm left with the dissonance of being one of those who thinks OOC knowledge use is bad because it breaks role-playing, but never having considered the obviously gamey "knowledge check to see if I recognize the house" was substantially lesser in terms of role-playing from stating it in character. [insert chagrined look] Something I will definitely work on next time I play. Thank you.

I run one campaign, play in two campaigns, and run 3 one-shots with pickup groups per month on average.

Do you change the lore in the campaign and/or have a huge variety of monstrous strains with different attributes?
 
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Unkind. If I'm specific in my language it's because I'm paraphrasing or quoting what the rules say.



That's not reasonable at my table. I'm going to ask the player what the character is doing. If I don't have that information, I would have to assume or establish what the character is doing in order to adjudicate which is effectively playing the character for the player. That is not the DM's role.

Then I submit that saying that your approach on this is extremely pedantic isn't unkind, it's descriptive. You would pretty much know what the player is getting at, but it isn't following your highly prescribed role so it is unacceptable though I wager it would be considered acceptable at 90% of other tables. That is extremely pedantic.
 

Then I submit that saying that your approach on this is extremely pedantic isn't unkind, it's descriptive. You would pretty much know what the player is getting at, but it isn't following your highly prescribed role so it is unacceptable though I wager it would be considered acceptable at 90% of other tables. That is extremely pedantic.
Probably no more pedantic than parsing out what an imaginary adventurer is allowed to do based on what they can’t “know.”

In discussion, sure, Iserith can be fastidious about the play loop. In play, his games (of those I’ve played in, even text-only) move very, very quickly. I imagine that’s why he’s so big on the play loop.
 

Then I submit that saying that your approach on this is extremely pedantic isn't unkind, it's descriptive. You would pretty much know what the player is getting at, but it isn't following your highly prescribed role so it is unacceptable though I wager it would be considered acceptable at 90% of other tables. That is extremely pedantic.

That’s different. First you said that the way he describes his gameplay is pedantic. Now you’re saying he describes pedantic gameplay.
 

Obviously preferences will vary from player to player. For me, if the random element is just for my benefit as DM running it for different groups, it’s not really necessary, and could potentially be improved by consciously choosing the best results for story reasons and sticking with those. Whereas, as a player I’d consider it a sufficient change to make a repeat playthrough fresh. That’s just me though, to each their own.

The first time I ran it I rigged it for what I considered the "best" results. The second time I let it be completely random just as a challenge to myself as a DM to see if I could make it work. It turned out fine, but I got relatively lucky draws. The only odd thing was that their ally (Ismark) was standing right there.
 

The first time I ran it I rigged it for what I considered the "best" results. The second time I let it be completely random just as a challenge to myself as a DM to see if I could make it work. It turned out fine, but I got relatively lucky draws. The only odd thing was that their ally (Ismark) was standing right there.
I’ve made a modified version of the Tarokka reading that uses real tarot cards, eliminates some of the worst options (Sir Klutz? Really?) and nudges things so the treasures are more likely to appear in places that make more sense for them specifically instead of a shared pool of possible locations for all of the treasures. Also it adds the third Wizard of Wines gem and the Icon of Ravenloft as treasures, and randomizes the fated weapon (could be the Sun Sword, the Thighbone of Saint Markovia, the Gulthias staff, or the Symbol of Ravenkind).
 

I will confess to having had other questions with waiting follow-ups... This one I was just actually curious what kinds of traps you found interesting enough to keep unchanged in the same location, and where foreknowledge didn't appreciably affect their impact.

Most of my traps will be complex enough that some amount of time and resources may be required even with foreknowledge. Foreknowledge may reduce the difficulty in some situations, but not others. Hazards are often in plain sight. A player's first attempt at dealing with them might be further refined in the second attempt. But again, this just reduces difficulty, potentially, and the challenge still remains. Dealing with the challenge produces the story.

As well, players are free in my game to use their skill and knowledge or they're free not to. Some will, some won't. As DM, it's none of my business either way - I'm just there to describe the environment and narrate the result of the adventurers' actions, sometimes calling for a check to decide how it goes.

I was picturing the difficulty of the task assessed as going into it. (As if one were assigning it something like a challenge rating). It didn't occur to me that it might have been the effect on the post-hoc assessment of how difficult it felt in retrospect. (As in, wow that combat was hard, we barely survived). Is the later the one you meant.

One might have an idea that a given challenge is "very hard" given its design, for example, and with or without foreknowledge, the players make certain decisions and the dice come up a certain way that reduce or increase the difficulty of the challenge. This is what I'm referring to. I hope that clarifies.

And now I'm left with the dissonance of being one of those who thinks OOC knowledge use is bad because it breaks role-playing, but never having considered the obviously gamey "knowledge check to see if I recognize the house" was substantially lesser in terms of role-playing from stating it in character. [insert chagrined look] Something I will definitely work on next time I play. Thank you.

This might be an issue of "metagame" versus "metagaming." A lot of people who don't like "metagaming" are perfectly fine playing a good portion of their sessions in the "metagame." My table rules combined with the rules of the game tend to reduce that sort of playing in the "metagame" and takes no position on "metagaming" except that players are advised it's a risky move.

Do you change the lore in the campaign and/or have a huge variety of monstrous strains with different attributes?

I don't change lore that is already established and I change monsters from time to time to suit whatever challenge I have designed. I don't do it to combat "metagaming" which I don't care about, but it does it all the same.

Oddly, most of the people I've played with or talked to who really do care about "metagaming" don't do this. It has the look of the game in effect being a test to me in that the DM sets the conditions for "metagaming" to occur and then the group visibly works to not do it, thereby reinforcing their group identity via the social contract. They're showing they're not "cheaters" instead of the DM just removing the ability to "cheat" or at least some of its efficacy in the first place. I just don't think the approach is well thought-through, particularly in the context of a game that doesn't support it very well.
 

One might have an idea that a given challenge is "very hard" given its design, for example, and with or without foreknowledge, the players make certain decisions and the dice come up a certain way that reduce or increase the difficulty of the challenge. This is what I'm referring to. I hope that clarifies.

It's not germane to the rest of the thread, but still has me befuddled.

So my bard who had a very bad attempt at picking a song the lord would like at the beginning of the challenge (rolled a 1), made the remainder of the challenge more difficult?

I don't change lore that is already established and I change monsters from time to time to suit whatever challenge I have designed. I don't do it to combat "metagaming" which I don't care about, but it does it all the same.

Do you find that you do it more often since you changed your views on play? Do you do it more often in the non-campaign games?

[And thanks again for answering a bunch of my questions!]
 

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