D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I was thinking ahead about LGBTQ+ writers, and my brain skipped to LGBTQ+ content in D&D, and if someone asked why would you need to put sex into it all, and then to the argument that if LGBTQ+ romance is bad why is cis-het stuff ok, and then to obvious books that had cis-het stuff, and then to books that had it badly.

This is an argument I have had with people more than once. Somehow, LGBTQ+ automatically equates to porn (which, in D&D, often comes with "I don't want sex and romance in my games", but I've usually only seen this sentiment invoked when we're discussing inclusion.) The inclusion of a gay or nonbinary character or non-straight romance doesn't automatically mean a steamy bedroom scene. It can be handled the same way as a heterosexual romance (that is the "default" of any relationship in fantasy, whether the book is heavy on romance or not) is. Or, if there is a steamy bedroom scene, if it's a cis man and woman, no one bats an eye. Make it gay, and suddenly it's porn and "doesn't belong". I've also seen "but the children" arguments, because two men kissing in a children's show is too explicit , even though most children grow up on Disney and have seen dozens of kissing scenes between a man and a woman.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I've also seen "but the children" arguments, because two men kissing in a children's show is too explicit , even though most children grow up on Disney and have seen dozens of kissing scenes between a man and a woman.
The "but the children" argument basically equates to "but we're homophobes!" (Nice post, btw)

In Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, Eberron: Rising from the Last War, and other 5e books there are examples of LGBTQ+ inclusion. I think there should be more of these in the books in 5e and all coming editions. They can definitely give inclusion to these characters in lore in 6e, and in other ways that I think would improve the game.
 

The "but the children" argument basically equates to "but we're homophobes!" (Nice post, btw)

In Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, Eberron: Rising from the Last War, and other 5e books there are examples of LGBTQ+ inclusion. I think there should be more of these in the books in 5e and all coming editions. They can definitely give inclusion to these characters in lore in 6e, and in other ways that I think would improve the game.

Thank you :) And oh I know, most of the arguments stem from homophobia, otherwise, it wouldn't be an issue.

Critical Role is pretty inclusive, and the later Forgotten Realms materials, like Dragon Heist, are getting better (the novels were too, before they ended the line, other than Drizzt). Ed Greenwood has always meant for the Realms to be inclusive and sexually and gender diverse, but it's only recently that WotC was more willing to show that (I've been a long time Realms fan). You have the Seldarine, the elven pantheon, who have always been depicted as having male and female forms (technically, all gods are beyond gender, but the Seldarine are the ones most depicted as such). I agree we can definitely see more of these characters.
 

Since Oriental Adventures was mentioned, I'd like to take a moment to let people know the recently released video game Ghosts of Tsushima has been very well received by even Japanese critics despite it being a game about Japan made by Westerners.

Now, ask yourself why.

I'm a big fan of Lovecraft, but even I can appreciate why he makes some people cringe and they have no desire to read his works. One of my favorite stories, "Herbert West - Reanimator" includes a particularly painful to read description of a black boxer that's difficult to read. Lovecraft's prose is challenging enough. Nobody should feel obligated to put up with his racism though.

My issue, primarily, is that the writer, not his work, but the writer himself, is being enshrined in the list of "Inspirational Reading" in the PHB. Not sure, really, that Lovecraft's works are all that inspirational. Note, there are tons of derivative works, lacking the rabid racism and bigotry, that deal with the Mythos, whose writers COULD be added to the list of things to read to inspire your D&D game.

------

I just wanted to add another thought here.

The problem that these threads seem to have, and why @Remathilis mentions having to walk on eggshells is the lack of focus when discussing issues. @Remathilis mentioned removing all real world mythology from the game. Why? Is there a complaint about having Thor in D&D? I'm not aware of one and, if there is, what is the SPECIFIC complaint? "It might be offensive" is not the reason to change something. That's very much not a good enough reason to change anything. It's too vague, too broad and frankly, meaningless.

Take the Vistani issue. There is a very specific issue here - the depiction of Vistani as thieving, lazy, drunkards veers pretty uncomfortably close to the real world depiction of the Romani people, who, for hundreds of years, have gotten the short end of the stick. Now, does that mean you can never have a Vistani who is a thieving, lazy drunkard? Nope. You most certainly can. What you shouldn't do, though, is have EVERY Vistani be that. If you depict Vistani, then, well, depict all sorts, good and bad. It's a pretty easy solution to a specific problem.

Or, the OA that was mentioned above. Does this mean we can never have an Asian flavored setting in D&D? Of course not. The specific issue with the OA is the whole othering of cultures, fetishization, and the fact that the original OA book, despite purporting to be an "Oriental" book, is 99% Japanese flavored. A new Asian flavored setting needs to be more even handed, pulling from a broader range of sources, and not pretending that the culture of a billion people in the real world doesn't exist. Again, adding a disclaimer to the book is a simple and sufficient solution.

The reason people feel like they have to walk on eggshells is because people are not bringing up specific issues. No one can deal with broad, vague issues. It's not possible. We need to focus on the concrete issues where you can definitively point to this or that in the book and say, "Yes, those words right there, that sentence? That needs to change." Otherwise, it's all punching fog and frustration.
 

Lovecraft's influence in modern day fantasy and horror is so much greater than it was when he was alive. Talking about his work without putting Lovecraft's views in the proper context is papering over how he sneaks in subtle and overt racist and colonialist concepts. That is all to say, if we can't get Lovecraft's influence out of modern fantasy, we should address Lovecraft's pernicious personal beliefs and how they influence his works and those works influenced by him (which I think a lot of scholarship has been doing a good job at lately).
Forgive me for potentially moving the goal posts, but that doesn't really solve the issue I'm thinking of, which is amount of current media (and media that I especially enjoy, so this hits close for me) is inexorably tied to a huge bigot.

Sure, you can contextualize him and his stories all you want, but specific themes (the main one I'm thinking of is the theme of the universe not caring at all about you and your struggles, and how existentially terrifying that is) came from a vile person.
 

This is an argument I have had with people more than once. Somehow, LGBTQ+ automatically equates to porn (which, in D&D, often comes with "I don't want sex and romance in my games", but I've usually only seen this sentiment invoked when we're discussing inclusion.) The inclusion of a gay or nonbinary character or non-straight romance doesn't automatically mean a steamy bedroom scene. It can be handled the same way as a heterosexual romance (that is the "default" of any relationship in fantasy, whether the book is heavy on romance or not) is. Or, if there is a steamy bedroom scene, if it's a cis man and woman, no one bats an eye. Make it gay, and suddenly it's porn and "doesn't belong". I've also seen "but the children" arguments, because two men kissing in a children's show is too explicit , even though most children grow up on Disney and have seen dozens of kissing scenes between a man and a woman.

Things like the massive popularity of the Riordan books, with having major LGBTQ+ characters not even coming up in reviews I read except as a positive thing, and the freedom Jeremy Whitley at Marvel had for the teen-aimed Unstoppable Wasp comic to explore the relationship between two of the girls, gives me a lot of hope that it's getting better. I mean it feels way too slow, but then I remember that the Lawrence v. Texas decision was only in 2003.
 

Forgive me for potentially moving the goal posts, but that doesn't really solve the issue I'm thinking of, which is amount of current media (and media that I especially enjoy, so this hits close for me) is inexorably tied to a huge bigot.

Sure, you can contextualize him and his stories all you want, but specific themes (the main one I'm thinking of is the theme of the universe not caring at all about you and your struggles, and how existentially terrifying that is) came from a vile person.
He didn’t invent Cosmic Horror.

Tangentially, I’ve never understood why people fear cosmological insignificance and amechanistic universe in general. Why should I care that the universe is incapable of caring about me? It’s a machine I live inside of. Why would it ever matter, to me, whether the universe cares about me or not?
 

Things like the massive popularity of the Riordan books, with having major LGBTQ+ characters not even coming up in reviews I read except as a positive thing, and the freedom Jeremy Whitley at Marvel had for the teen-aimed Unstoppable Wasp comic to explore the relationship between two of the girls, gives me a lot of hope that it's getting better. I mean it feels way too slow, but then I remember that the Lawrence v. Texas decision was only in 2003.
I've read almost every one of Riordan's books. The inclusion of LGBTQ+ characters in the series were a nice addition.
 


I've read almost every one of Riordan's books. The inclusion of LGBTQ+ characters in the series were a nice addition.
I really like when D&D settings make some of the gods Queer. Like, gender fluid Corellon is cool, but Erathis and Melora are lovers in one of the podcast D&D worlds (Exandria, I think?) which is rad as hell.

In one world I’m working on, Kord is gay, and has been the lover of many of the gods, and has an especially storied relationship with the as yet unnamed androgynous/Non-Binary god of Magic, Secrets, Thieves, Good Assassins, and Crows, who often presents as petite butch pixie who will stab you. (They’re one of the Gods of Revolution, who folks seek out when they are being oppressed and need to overcome that. They’re specifically the patron of knifing your oppressors in dark alleyways and taking their stuff.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top