D&D 5E Reliable Talent and Disadvantage - order of precedence?

[NotAYakk]

He's didn't admit to trolling.

He stated he would rule X, and tha Y is also a valid reading.

I get that some people cannot grasp the idea of ambiguity. Don't project your personal failures onto other people and accuse them of trolling.

There is no "one true RAW" interpretation. This is true throughout D&D, and even if the author of the piece says "I meant X" it doesn't change that.

Almost all human written text is ambiguous. English is not designed to eliminate ambiguity. Even legal texts with myriads of strange and strict interpretation rules (which isn't English, so don't apply when reading D&D) ends up with piles of ambiguity and needs layers if judges and scholars to tease into what often eventually ends up as an arbitrary choice.

This may make you feel uneasy. Tough.

 

[jgsugden]

RT does not alter the result of the roll, it allows you to treat it as if it were a different number. So in your example, disadvantage requires using the 4 because that's the lowest of the two numbers actually rolled, and RT allows treating it as if it were a 10.

No.

You're picking and choosing where to treat the 4 as a 10. You either treat it as a 10, or as a 4, but you can't treat it as a 4 for one purpose and a 10 in another. It is one of the two for the ability check purposes.

You're making results oriented arguments to try to create ambiguity where there really isn't any.

 

[jgsugden]

You know what's a big giveaway? Read aloud 'Reliable Talent', to take an unnaturally strict interpretation, you must pronounce 'a' as 'eh'.

What does that even mean? Your pronunciation of a word does not change the meaning of it.

There is no unnaturally strict interpretation here. Just a common sense one. Whenever you do a, do b. A is make an ability check. B is treat one d20 roll as a 10. Period.

 

[FarBeyondC]

What does that even mean? Your pronunciation of a word does not change the meaning of it.

There is no unnaturally strict interpretation here. Just a common sense one. Whenever you do a, do b. A is make an ability check. B is treat one d20 roll as a 10. Period.

Given it's equally likely that the 'a' in the context of the rule could mean 'any' instead of 'one', your insistence that said 'a' must be read as 'one' is baffling.

 

[NotAYakk]

Jsugden, the "whenever" could refer to a different set of circumstances.

Either "whenever" as "you make a skill check" or "whenever" you "make a skill check and a d20 is 9 or under".

Both are reasonable interoretations of the scope of whenever. This.is caysed by the double-conditional nature of the sentence; "make a skill check" and "d20 of 9 or under" are both conditions on when you can treat the die as a 10.

English does not strongly dictate to which set of clauses Whenever binds to. At best you have rules of thumb.

So replacing both d20s is valid under at least one reading. (and being only allowed to replace one of them is valid under another reading).

As I have said before, I err on the side of being generous in my reading when it isn't a serious balance problem. And this isn't.

 

[jgsugden]

Given it's equally likely that the 'a' in the context of the rule could mean 'any' instead of 'one', your insistence that said 'a' must be read as 'one' is baffling.

A dog means one dog. A word means one word. When does "A" ever mean any?

 

[jgsugden]

Jsugden, the "whenever" could refer to a different set of circumstances.

Either "whenever" as "you make a skill check" or "whenever" you "make a skill check and a d20 is 9 or under".

Do you see the comma in the language? It negates the second option you propose.

You're really trying hard to make an argument that just doesn't stand up.

There really is only one reasonable interpretation of that language. Some things are up for debate... this really is not.

 

[briggart]

No.

You're picking and choosing where to treat the 4 as a 10. You either treat it as a 10, or as a 4, but you can't treat it as a 4 for one purpose and a 10 in another. It is one of the two for the ability check purposes.

You're making results oriented arguments to try to create ambiguity where there really isn't any.

I'm not trying to create ambiguity, because I don't think the rules are ambiguous. To simplify, I see an ability check as a two step process:

1) generate a random number by rolling one or more d20
2) add relevant modifiers

To me Advantage/disadvantage applies to step 1) because it affects how the random number is generated, but RT is applied in step 2 because it can modify the result of the number you got. I've been playing a bunch of miniature games recently where this kind of sequencing is critical, so I'm possibly overthinking how things should be handled on the D&D side.

But again, Xanathar's guidance on simultaneous effects is that the controller of the entity affected by simultaneous effects (i.e. players for PCs, DMs for monster and NPCs) picks the order in which effects are applied, so even assuming that Disadvantage and RT are simultaneous, applying Disadvantage and then RT seems to me consistent with official 5e rules.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Just going to throw this out there from PHB pg. 171

When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling’s Lucky trait, lets you reroll the d20, you can reroll only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.

(I think) This contradicts my original opinion on the ruling.

 

[jgsugden]

@briggart It is great that you see things, but here are the relevant rules:

RELIABLE TALENT
By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.
...
ADVANTAGE and DISADVANTAGE
Sometimes a special ability or spell tells you that you have advantage or disadvantage on an ability check, a saving throw, or an attack roll. When that happens, you roll a second d20 when you make the roll. Use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage, and use the lower roll if you have disadvantage

Let's break all of this down once more for the people that are being creative:

WHENEVER YOU MAKE AN ABILITY CHECK THAT LETS YOU ADD YOUR PROFICIENCY MODIFIER (COMMA) ...

This gives us the situation in which the ability is triggered. The comma clearly ends the condition, making it clear that this is the relevant criteria to trigger the ability.

… YOU CAN TREAT A D20 ROLL OF 9 OR LOWER AS A 10.

You get to treat one roll within an ability check as a 10 if it is 9 or lower. You do this AFTER you've rolled all dice and after you've determined the modifiers to be used (as you need to know whether proficiency is to be included), but only ONE SINGLE die result is changed.

WHEN (a special ability or spell tells you that you advantage or disadvantage on an ability check), YOU ROLL A SECOND D20 WHEN YOU MAKE THE ROLL...

As part of one ability check, you are rolling two dice. As only a maximum of one die is treated as a 10. The other roll is unmodified.

… USE THE LOWER ROLL IF YOU HAVE DISADVANTAGE.

If you have disadvantage, after treating one die roll of 9 or less as if it were a 10, you determine which roll is now lower. The roll that is treated as a 10 is lower if the other roll was an 11 or higher. If the other roll was 9 or lower, that roll is now the lower roll.

@TaranTheWanderer - This is not a reroll - it is a roll treated as another number so that phrase does not directly apply, although it does show the intent that separate rolls in advantage or disadvantage are independent rolls.