D&D 5E Long Rest is a Problem

[EscherEnigma]

Anytime I come across the "I want to add more realism to hit points!" argument, I think back to the old d20 Star Wars RPG, which separated HP into "wound points" and "vitality points".

Vitality was basically what we normlly characterize "HP" as. Luck, flesh wounds, stamina, etc. In most cases, you have to go through Vitality Points before you can touch the Wound Points. Vitality Points were relatively easy to restore, and increased with level.

Wound Points were the "damage to body". Take 1 point of wound point damage, and you start suffering penalties. Take too many at once and you can lose a limb (this was Star Wars, after all. You need a way to dramatically chop off hands and arms). Recovering this was slow un-aided, and even with advanced healing tech was slow. These did not increase with level, and I think were based on Con.

Oh, and critical hits, instead of doing extra damage or something, went straight to wound-points. So combat was way more dangerous since a single lucky crit could basically take someone out of combat. With magical healing it probably wouldn't be quite as bad, but still serious.

Something like that system could probably work. Have healing magic work on vitality, but make it work much less on wound points.

Bottom-line though, is that something like 95% of the narrative inconsistencies of HP are solved by separting out the "bodily injury" and the "getting winded" parts. But there's probably a reason you don't see that kind of system used in D&D.

 

[Nebulous]

I addressed the issue by giving Long Rests levels that significantly deplete what they get back if their environment is unsafe or unstable. But yes, the system of long rest is overall flawed as my players always want to enter everything full power. Doesn't always happen for them, but they want it.

 

[Weiley31]

Long as a short rest is 5 mins, I'm good.

 

[Cadence]

Anytime I come across the "I want to add more realism to hit points!" argument, I think back to the old d20 Star Wars RPG, which separated HP into "wound points" and "vitality points".

Vitality was basically what we normlly characterize "HP" as. Luck, flesh wounds, stamina, etc. In most cases, you have to go through Vitality Points before you can touch the Wound Points. Vitality Points were relatively easy to restore, and increased with level.

Wound Points were the "damage to body". Take 1 point of wound point damage, and you start suffering penalties. Take too many at once and you can lose a limb (this was Star Wars, after all. You need a way to dramatically chop off hands and arms). Recovering this was slow un-aided, and even with advanced healing tech was slow. These did not increase with level, and I think were based on Con.

Oh, and critical hits, instead of doing extra damage or something, went straight to wound-points. So combat was way more dangerous since a single lucky crit could basically take someone out of combat. With magical healing it probably wouldn't be quite as bad, but still serious.

Something like that system could probably work. Have healing magic work on vitality, but make it work much less on wound points.

Bottom-line though, is that something like 95% of the narrative inconsistencies of HP are solved by separting out the "bodily injury" and the "getting winded" parts. But there's probably a reason you don't see that kind of system used in D&D.

Pathfinder had it as an optional rule in one of it's books. I'm interested to hear of any experiences with it.

 

[Musing Mage]

I am normally a 1st Ed guy, so the idea of a single HP recovery per day is fine by me!

I liked the idea of the Gritty Realism variant in the DMG, but it wasn't quite right. I have been pondering an 'Old School gritty' slower healing set of houserules within the 5e playground.

This is what I came up with, and yes, it's 100% untested as given the current world events I haven't been playing a lot of D&D. Just something I've been thinking up.

These only apply to healing, not other rest-based ability recovery like spell slots, or Ki or what-have-you...

Failed Death Saves
These now stick around once you're back on your feet, and carry over until you heal. For as long as you have a Failed Death Save on your record, you make ALL ACTIONS at disadvantage.

Short Rest:
Character may attempt a DC 15 Medicine check to use one (1) Hit die (+ CON modifier as normal) for a partial recovery. Failure means no HP back, though the HD is not expended.

Long Rest:
The character may Choose ONE of the following healing options during a long rest:

- Spend one (1) HD for a partial recovery. With a successful DC 15 medicine check, a character may spend one more HD for a total of 2.
OR
- Recover half their expended HD. (as per normal rules)
OR
- Remove one Failed Death Save from the character's record.

Laying out the rests this way should, theoretically, make players be a little more careful about their actions, as well as stretch out recovery time from damage, while still playing within the layout of 5E's resting mechanics.

Not for everyone, I'm sure, but I plan to test it at some point.

 

[humble minion]

Anytime I come across the "I want to add more realism to hit points!" argument, I think back to the old d20 Star Wars RPG, which separated HP into "wound points" and "vitality points".

Vitality was basically what we normlly characterize "HP" as. Luck, flesh wounds, stamina, etc. In most cases, you have to go through Vitality Points before you can touch the Wound Points. Vitality Points were relatively easy to restore, and increased with level.

Wound Points were the "damage to body". Take 1 point of wound point damage, and you start suffering penalties. Take too many at once and you can lose a limb (this was Star Wars, after all. You need a way to dramatically chop off hands and arms). Recovering this was slow un-aided, and even with advanced healing tech was slow. These did not increase with level, and I think were based on Con.

Oh, and critical hits, instead of doing extra damage or something, went straight to wound-points. So combat was way more dangerous since a single lucky crit could basically take someone out of combat. With magical healing it probably wouldn't be quite as bad, but still serious.

Something like that system could probably work. Have healing magic work on vitality, but make it work much less on wound points.

Bottom-line though, is that something like 95% of the narrative inconsistencies of HP are solved by separting out the "bodily injury" and the "getting winded" parts. But there's probably a reason you don't see that kind of system used in D&D.

I ran a long-term d20 Star Wars game (for my sins...) and in my experience this really didn't work as well as it would seem on paper (although some of the reasons for this were due to interaction with other, more serious problems in the d20 Star Wars system which are a tear- and whiskey-stained rant for another day...)

Main problem was that it reduced everyone to crit-fishing. I did somewhat see this coming, so i pre-emptively banned every character option (feats etc) that increased threat ranges, but there's only so much you can do. Of course crit ranges were a lot more varied in d20 than 5e, but if i had to guess, in a system like this we'd see chamption fighters become MUCH more potent due to the increased crit ranges they get, and monks/multiweapon fighters as well, because they can run a strategy of spamming out as many attacks as possible just to hunt for that 20 (because with 5e you no longer have to roll to confirm the crit after the initial attack roll, which was one restraint on this under d20). And of course there's spellcasting - area effect damage wasn't such a big deal in Star Wars (grenades sucked!), but it certainly is in 5e for most casters. Do you have a mechanism for, say, critical spell hits on natural 1 saves? But if so, that heavily boosts certain character types (evokers and Light clerics, for example) which has a flow-on effect to the balance of all other casters, unless you apply it to ALL spells, but how does that even work for non-hp spells like, I dunno, Ray of Enfeeblement? Higher-level Warlocks spamming Eldritch Blast would be brutal, just so many attack rolls! If you design a system around VP/WP it could probably work, but as a plug-and-play into an existing system, there's all sorts of potential traps.

I'm finding the 5e 'complete overnight recovery from everything' paradigm a bit too generous for my taste as well, to be honest, but i'm not sure tacking a VP/WP subsystem on to the current 5e system is the way to go. But conversely I don't want PCs out of action for nine months of game time while their ruptured achilles tendon heals at a realistic timeframe. If i had to come up with a system off the top of my head, I'd go with complete recovery of all hit dice after a long rest, but no automatic healing. Plus if a PC goes down to 0 hp at any point, on recovery they gain the 'wounded' condition. 'Wounded' might do something like impose 1d4 levels of exhaustion that stick around regardless of rest until 1d6 days has elapsed or until the PC has recovered to their full hit point total AND received additional magical healing on top of that equal to their hit point maximum.

edit: paladins would be another class that'd enjoy VP/WP, because applying smite to an attack once you know you've already rolled a 20 would turn 'serious injury' into 'giblets everywhere'. Especially polearm/sentinel paladins, who are optimised to spam out a lot of attacks even at relatively moderate level - they'd be prime crit-fishers. Nobody cares if your glaive-butt attack only causes d4 damage when that goes straight to wounds and you can stack 3d8 extra on top of it with Divine Smite...

 

[Azzy]

Wow, from the playtest era, even.

For me and my group, this turned out to be a non-issue in the long run.

 

[Coroc]

well, your thoughts in the end requires at least one character to be some class capable of magical healing. But what if that one is not available for some reason?

 

[Asisreo]

I remember lurking in this thread before, lol. I'm debating whether I should even bother talking about this.

 

[humble minion]

well, your thoughts in the end requires at least one character to be some class capable of magical healing. But what if that one is not available for some reason?

(I'm assuming you're responding to me there!)

It'd be a pretty unusual party that didn't have ANYONE capable of magic healing, given how many classes (even certain warlock/sorcerer subclasses) can do it these days, but even if so, there's still options.

1. Wait. It'll only be a few days. In fact this is the intended option, the whole point of the exercise is to make injury a more serious and lasting condition, after all!
2. Healing potions. It's not unreasonable, on average a mere three healing potions will be enough to fully heal a 16 con level 2 fighter, and party resources will only increase exponentially after that.
3. Buy or negotiate healing off NPCs. A roleplaying opportunity! A chance for the GM to indebt PCs to clerics of questionable gods...!