D&D 5E Rejecting the Premise in a Module

[WayOfTheFourElements]

In fairness, not everyone is in a situation where they're able to choose from a pool of potential players. I've been fortunate that way, most of the time; but those that for example live in a small town might not have that deep a pool and thus could find themselves having to settle for whatever they get.

I used to buy that - until I left the US. Not only do I live in a pretty small town (80,000), most people here don't even speak English, yet I still have 22 stable players.

 

[Sadras]

I started using APs only with 5e - before it was predominantly homebrewed content for over 25 years or so.
I use the APs in a completely sandbox way, mashing 3 of them together - therefore the players, who have 2-3 characters each, can choose which quests to pursue or because its a sandbox environment ignore them all together with their primary PCs (their secondary and tertiary PC are tied to the APs in some format or other).

Amongst the sandbox, I pepper it with modules from the DMsGuild that tie into the APs, create homebrew and use Adventure Guild content. This has kept my group going for some 4 years now and will likely see us through another year - which means I have had content at a cost of less than $3 a month. For me so worth it.

Our game is completely sandbox so they have had options to eject from the setting (Banishment, Sigil, etc) but they have never taken them. APs aren't perfect, but there is so much help online, here and other places - that if you have the time - can provide some rewarding sessions. Ofcourse you also need a player base that suits your particular DMing style.

 

[Helldritch]

And I apologize, but I do not understand this. You read a 260 page book, four times , in one hour? And also took notes? But you don't like speed-reading? Am I misreading it?

Note: I get it, it's not 260 pages of "reading." But it is 150-200 pages or reading if you leave out the art (which I hope you look at closely to maybe get clues on NPC's, since they are often the ones pictured) and stat blocks (that you still need to read). It's 50,000 to 75,000 words, which takes 2.5 to 3.5 hours for the average person. To read it in one hour would be fast. To read it four times would be very very very very fast.

The goal of speed reading the AP is that the first read takes about 15 to 20 minutes. This way you get the whole picture/plot and how the writers managed it. After that, you read/skim through the books for the things you want to check out, the specific things that speed reading did not highlighted enough. Stat blocks are irrelevant for skiming notes purpose. Some pages are not read a second time at all. Only the parts that are key for your perspective or what you want to check/improve. Notes are one to five key words + page number. Dungeon crawl parts will not be reread too or not entirely. This is more or less relegated to the final stages where it will take more time but that would be done before the actual session. The third time see even less page read. I will only read the page noted for specific information. The fourth time is often there just to add a final note or find loopholes in the plot that need to be addressed.

After that there might be a bit more work where you have to think on how to adapt certain things to your campaign/group. That is a bit longer yes, but not that much. And will be done relatively quickly depending on the quality previously done in the AP.

And yes I do not like speed reading. It is however a useful tool. It both a blessing and a curse. It forces me to read each novel book I buy at least twice to get a better appreciation. But if I really like a book, I can read it more than twice to get everything. At the third time, I retain a lot of info that the average person will not. Unfortunately, it also means that I can miss some details and it is also why a lot detective/murder stories ends up with total surprise for me when the killer is revealed. I read fast, so I might/will miss some clues on the first read. This is also why I don't like detective/murder novel.

On the other hand, it allows for fast appreciation and fact searching. I don't waste time with what I do not like and I can find the info in a book in no time. This helped me a lot at the university and it helps me a lot in DM.

 

[Scott Christian]

Did read your post and did liked it. You "chastize" me for not reading and yet, just after that you re state that to do justice to an AP it takes more than a few notes... I do not need that much time to tailor an AP to either of my groups. First because I can read very fast and also because I have 37 years of DMing behind me. The fact that I have known some of my players for almost 5 decades helps too. The second groups are younger and were former students of mine.

To take your own words, the more "thoughtful" approach is, for me, as fast as your less "thoughtful" one.

I am a very structured DM. I take notes both during and after each sessions and I reread them before the next one to make adjustments to better suit the group. This is mainly because that at one time, I could have as much as 5 different groups. That is too much information to retain for a single person. Notes were the answer and it serves me well. These notes allow me to improvise a lot without derailing too far in o e direction or the other.

Edit: try it, notes changed a lot for me. It allowed me to improvise a lot and remain consistant.

I wonder why the edit did not appeared in the original post....?

Sorry Helldritch,
I wasn't trying to be snarky. I did say maybe I wasn't being concise enough. Just trying to understand. I get it. You can read and run these things, with structure and good notes, very quickly. I have no doubt your experience helps, and I'm with you, notes are clutch.
But my posts are responses to you while still trying to address the OP. I think one of the issues may have been with lack of prep work. That's the only reason I said to do it justice.
I mean this thread is still about the OP, and there are two sides. We all probably believe a little bit of both: the players could be at fault, but so could the DM.

 

[Scott Christian]

The goal of speed reading the AP is that the first read takes about 15 to 20 minutes. This way you get the whole picture/plot and how the writers managed it. After that, you read/skim through the books for the things you want to check out, the specific things that speed reading did not highlighted enough. Stat blocks are irrelevant for skiming notes purpose. Some pages are not read a second time at all. Only the parts that are key for your perspective or what you want to check/improve. Notes are one to five key words + page number. Dungeon crawl parts will not be reread too or not entirely. This is more or less relegated to the final stages where it will take more time but that would be done before the actual session. The third time see even less page read. I will only read the page noted for specific information. The fourth time is often there just to add a final note or find loopholes in the plot that need to be addressed.

After that there might be a bit more work where you have to think on how to adapt certain things to your campaign/group. That is a bit longer yes, but not that much. And will be done relatively quickly depending on the quality previously done in the AP.

And yes I do not like speed reading. It is however a useful tool. It both a blessing and a curse. It forces me to read each novel book I buy at least twice to get a better appreciation. But if I really like a book, I can read it more than twice to get everything. At the third time, I retain a lot of info that the average person will not. Unfortunately, it also means that I can miss some details and it is also why a lot detective/murder stories ends up with total surprise for me when the killer is revealed. I read fast, so I might/will miss some clues on the first read. This is also why I don't like detective/murder novel.

On the other hand, it allows for fast appreciation and fact searching. I don't waste time with what I do not like and I can find the info in a book in no time. This helped me a lot at the university and it helps me a lot in DM.

Oh my god. That is a superpower. Good for you man. That is a skill that is of immense help in school and DM'ing. And thank you for explaining the pet-peeve. I was truly confused.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The goal of speed reading the AP is that the first read takes about 15 to 20 minutes. This way you get the whole picture/plot and how the writers managed it. After that, you read/skim through the books for the things you want to check out, the specific things that speed reading did not highlighted enough. Stat blocks are irrelevant for skiming notes purpose. Some pages are not read a second time at all. Only the parts that are key for your perspective or what you want to check/improve. Notes are one to five key words + page number. Dungeon crawl parts will not be reread too or not entirely. This is more or less relegated to the final stages where it will take more time but that would be done before the actual session. The third time see even less page read. I will only read the page noted for specific information. The fourth time is often there just to add a final note or find loopholes in the plot that need to be addressed.

After that there might be a bit more work where you have to think on how to adapt certain things to your campaign/group. That is a bit longer yes, but not that much. And will be done relatively quickly depending on the quality previously done in the AP.

And yes I do not like speed reading. It is however a useful tool. It both a blessing and a curse. It forces me to read each novel book I buy at least twice to get a better appreciation. But if I really like a book, I can read it more than twice to get everything. At the third time, I retain a lot of info that the average person will not. Unfortunately, it also means that I can miss some details and it is also why a lot detective/murder stories ends up with total surprise for me when the killer is revealed. I read fast, so I might/will miss some clues on the first read. This is also why I don't like detective/murder novel.

On the other hand, it allows for fast appreciation and fact searching. I don't waste time with what I do not like and I can find the info in a book in no time. This helped me a lot at the university and it helps me a lot in DM.

I don't know if I have the technical skill "speed-reading", but this sounds somewhat close to my approach if I want to run an AP/module, and run it real soon. Sometimes, if I have a lazy afternoon, I don't do this at all, I just read through the whole thing at a more normal speed, and maybe barely even take notes (and will instead skim later), but yeah if I'm expecting to run something next weekend or in a day or three or something, this approach is more similar.

The only issue I find with this is that sometimes the loopholes one finds in the last phase (and yes that is typically when you find them - the "normal speed" afternoon-reads more rarely pick them up in my experience, because you haven't seen the "whole elephant" as it were) are so major that they present a real problem/annoyance.

Also some APs are so spotty and/or badly organised that they don't even make basic sense on the first skim. That's a big red warning light for me. If they don't make sense then, experience tells me that the odds of them having some major plot issues, requiring massive railroading, or particularly of the writer having not accounted for the PCs doing what seems like an obvious thing to do are much, much higher. The odds of the overall plot just not being particularly inherently compelling are also much higher.

 

[Helldritch]

I don't know if I have the technical skill "speed-reading", but this sounds somewhat close to my approach if I want to run an AP/module, and run it real soon. Sometimes, if I have a lazy afternoon, I don't do this at all, I just read through the whole thing at a more normal speed, and maybe barely even take notes (and will instead skim later), but yeah if I'm expecting to run something next weekend or in a day or three or something, this approach is more similar.

The only issue I find with this is that sometimes the loopholes one finds in the last phase (and yes that is typically when you find them - the "normal speed" afternoon-reads more rarely pick them up in my experience, because you haven't seen the "whole elephant" as it were) are so major that they present a real problem/annoyance.

Also some APs are so spotty and/or badly organised that they don't even make basic sense on the first skim. That's a big red warning light for me. If they don't make sense then, experience tells me that the odds of them having some major plot issues, requiring massive railroading, or particularly of the writer having not accounted for the PCs doing what seems like an obvious thing to do are much, much higher. The odds of the overall plot just not being particularly inherently compelling are also much higher.

And you are absolutely right! Speed reading means that I might miss a few things now and then. This is why I often have to go through the books more than once. But after the fourth time, I usually get much more than a one shot careful reading. But it did happen to me to miss a few things even with many reads.

And yes, some AP are very badly organised, don't make sense at all and even have some major plot issues. I have not seen such bad AP in 5ed so far (at least, those that are official material for 5ed) but I did see these in previous editions. Some had issues (DH for example) but they were not major ones in my mind. STK had a strange assumption that no group would attack the friendly cloud giant... Without modifications, all groups that I have been aware of have systematically attack the poor sod. But other than a few minor bugs here and there and the usual adaptations required for each groups, nothing major came up so far.

Sorry Helldritch,
I wasn't trying to be snarky. I did say maybe I wasn't being concise enough. Just trying to understand. I get it. You can read and run these things, with structure and good notes, very quickly. I have no doubt your experience helps, and I'm with you, notes are clutch.
But my posts are responses to you while still trying to address the OP. I think one of the issues may have been with lack of prep work. That's the only reason I said to do it justice.
I mean this thread is still about the OP, and there are two sides. We all probably believe a little bit of both: the players could be at fault, but so could the DM.

Don't be sorry. I was not mad, angry or anything. I just answered. If my answer sounded sarcastic or angry; I am truly sorry. And yes, we all believe that there is always a bit of both sides that can be wrong. Communication is essential.

Oh my god. That is a superpower. Good for you man. That is a skill that is of immense help in school and DM'ing. And thank you for explaining the pet-peeve. I was truly confused.

Ho but it is not a super power and it can be learned. See the above answer to Ruin Explorer. Speed reading is useless in many areas. Technical read outs are out of the questions as are a lot of engineering books. Speed reading does have its limits. It is not an all powerful trump card for everything.

 

[Scott Christian]

Saltmarsh is bascially just an anthology of martitime themed adventures anyway so not sure how you can not go off path with it but it is easy to add more options to it!

Here is my current "Saltmarsh" campaign. I started out with U1 then an idea of where I wanted the campaign to go..kind of. To start I had 3 possible paths/ rough ideas.

1. Follow from Saltmarsh to Smugglers and possibly link the the Slavelords series
2. Follow up lizardmen to U2 and then and possibly lead to Tomb of the Lizard King (eventually)- I had a group of lizardmen arrive at the mansion to meet the smugglers (the party didn't get to the Sea Ghost).
3. Follow up on some other threads (some Dungeon mag adventures) and lead to isle of the Abbey/ Evil Tide and other sahuagin adventures (maybe the whole 2e Sahuagin series).

As you can see at the end of each adventure the party were usually given (or had already a good hook or two to follow up if they wanted) their next adventure choices. Only Light of lost Souls was directed as the fighter had died in U1 and his uncle being the inheritor of the mansion and their sponsor they were asked to clear to start the series wanted his nephew and heir back so they owed him and the church a little favour...

Post Evil Tide they wanted the hell away from the sea and sahuagin so I threw in a little bugbear raiders homebrew while I sorted out where to next.

I've tried to maintain 2-3 options for the next adventure for them to choose and that has lead from the Sea to the heart of the crystalmist mountains

View attachment 124535

View attachment 124536

Red arrows indicate choices not taken or the next options to follow up.
View attachment 124537

There has been minimal prep from me but the players are directing where they go rather than having little input at the next "adventure decision point" (which really isn't) or chapter in the adventure path. I much prefer this style game to a more linear structured adventure path. Sure you can, and should add material to adventure paths (or take away form them too) but this style of gaming is much more my preference for D&D.

It was interesting early on the arguments between different options between the players as they valued different choices (especially as they wre keen to deal with the smugglers but had a few weeks before the smugglers were returning to Saltmarsh so wanted something todo till the Sea Ghost returned on the enxt full moon. I find that after 3-4 adventures the next step organically grows out of previous choices and once the players become invested and feel their choices matter and are driving their story the game grows organically and gathers its own momentum more so that we need to do A-->B--C to "finish" the adventure path.

I could start this campaign again with U1 and another group and I'm sure the players would choose a very different path as they went.

Stormdale

I just finished a storyboard for my AP. Very similar. They seem necessary for many if you want to have cohesive stories similar to published AP's.

 

[Stormdale]

Nice, in my case I only decided during the "current adventure" the next 3 options so ahdn't really fleashed it out, it was moe of a living document and several of the options/hooks they didn't follow up with may have reappeared at the next time they completed and adventure but then dropped off the options but it looks like yours has plenty of decision points.

Stormdale

 

[Lanefan]

@Scott Christian - the boxed bits represent adventures and the circled bits represent connections between adventures, am I reading that right?

Or, if not, what represents what there?