Level Up (A5E) Class redesign

[Haldrik]

Sounds like you guys are on track to re-invent Pathfinder 2.

My impression of P2 is, many choices are between less important "ribbons".

I hope A5E is beefier important decision points.

One feat can be two half feats, and one half feat can be say four proficiencies. So the beefy choice can be to get a number of smaller choices.

But, I like the more meaningful choice that can come with an apparatus that supports and fleshes out that choice.

 

[Haldrik]

No thank you. That is basically the PF2e approach. If you want that, go play PF2e. I would prefer a less rigid structure to Level Up!

How is anything rigid? What each feat looks like can be quite fluid. Even gaining a new spell level is a kind of feat unit.



Feats should have tier prerequisites, so no access to slot 9 spells until Legend Tier. And so on.

Swapping in a lower tier feat from some other class should be possible.

It is also possible to swap out a class feat to get a species feat instead. Highly fluid. Players can choose anything, if they want to.

 

[TwoSix]

If this is truly what you are trying for... then I think what you are going to have to do is build one "blank" generic class. Figure out the different feature slots for each level, and then put every single game and class feature and every spell into one big selection pot. This is the only way you are going to be able to balance all the features against each other, while simultaneously determining the level prerequisite for each feature as well. Basically you need to Skills And Powers your game.

Once you do that... get all features, spells, and selections created and their costs determined... can you then be able to build your standard classes out of the system. You won't ever need to multiclass ever again, because you can select the features you want at every level, some of which will match the "class builds" you will supply with the book (for those people who don't wish to create their own build for their character. )

I don't think you need to go that far. Every D&D-type game is built around a pot of features, hundreds or thousands of them. What determines the complexity of character building how much you gate them and link them together. Level is just a gating mechanic. "Class" is just a way to group different features into silos. "Subclass" is just tying features together into a chain. "Spell lists" are just another way to silo features to enforce thematic considerations.

You can change the size and scope of various silos, link and unlink feature changes, without suddenly becoming classless.

 

[NotAYakk]

A section on class design could be written. You can deconstruct the durability/damage budget of martial-types (and even paladins) on an expected adventuring day.

This is a DM-facing feature; but by doing it, the quality of your player-facing features (class rewrites) gains quality.

 

[dave2008]

How is anything rigid? What each feat looks like can be quite fluid. Even gaining a new spell level is a kind of feat unit.

It is rigid because each choice at each level in your proposed solution must/should be equivalent. With the current system (class features, subclass features, & feats) you can have access to different levels of power/benefit as desired. A class feature doesn't have to be = to a feat or a subclass feature. It therefore allows more design flexibility. It is more difficult to do well, but I prefer more design flexibility.

 

[Zaukrie]

It is rigid because each choice at each level in your proposed solution must/should be equivalent. With the current system (class features, subclass features, & feats) you can have access to different levels of power/benefit as desired. A class feature doesn't have to be = to a feat or a subclass feature. It therefore allows more design flexibility. It is more difficult to do well, but I prefer more design flexibility.

I don't agree taht they all need to be equal. Most of the people I've played with aren't into optimization (some are for sure), and are good with choosing less efficient ideas if it fits the story/character.

I get that note everyone agrees, and that that might not be your point.....

 

[dave2008]

Players can choose anything, if they want to.

And that has issues too. I know that is a big reason I am not really interested in PF2e anymore. Even if pre-built "classes" are provided, I can't help but look at all of those available options. Now, if those options were a separate book, that might work. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[dave2008]

I don't agree taht they all need to be equal. Most of the people I've played with aren't into optimization (some are for sure), and are good with choosing less efficient ideas if it fits the story/character.

I get that note everyone agrees, and that that might not be your point.....

To be clear I am not advocating the design style of @Haldrik, but if that style is chosen, then each feat should be equal conceptually to make it truly plug and play. Again, I am not for that style of class design anymore. At one time a few years ago I was pretty much in line with Haldrik, but since PF2e came out I have retreated heavily from that idea.

 

[Haldrik]

It is rigid because each choice at each level in your proposed solution must/should be equivalent. With the current system (class features, subclass features, & feats) you can have access to different levels of power/benefit as desired. A class feature doesn't have to be = to a feat or a subclass feature. It therefore allows more design flexibility. It is more difficult to do well, but I prefer more design flexibility.

No.

You can pick any feat from a lower tier.

So you can use a Paladin feat to instead pick up a Warlock feature from a lower tier, for example. As one gains in tiers, more and more options become available.

Obviously, higher tier options are unavailable for balance reasons.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I remember in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, there were classes that gave you more narrative-focused choices rather than mechanical choices.

For example, at a certain level a spellcasting class could choose between:

• Glowing eyes
• A shadow that moves on its own
• A constant breeze moving your robes and cape

I'm not remembering those correctly, but I thought that was a hoot.

I'm not sure that's what's needed in a more "crunchy" 5e, but it brought back fond memories!