Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[FrogReaver]

I have A suggestion for this thread. Instead of trying to bring the wizard down to the the fighter or the fighter up to the wizard - let’s keep the power level of the fight and the wizard about the same as now and let’s just provide some interesting options for each.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Until combat starts, where a caster is a useless bag of meat in their worst case scenario and the only worst-case scenario for the fighter is not having at least 1hp.

So in combat, the worst case situation of only having 1HP and no effective attacks put the Fighter and casters on the same level.

How's a high-level caster going to survive a single encounter against one of D&D's most iconic

enemy, the Beholder?

Get into cover and teleport out. At least the beholder can't attack them with its eye rays if it wants to stop them using their spells.

Your average greatsword fighter is probably going to fare worse to be frank, since they don't have potential escape options in the shape of spells. The beholder is also freer to zap them since it doesn't need to shut down the fighter's magic quite so much.

And just think about the monster you had to pick.

Casters suck against saving throws, too. Force a save on them, any save, and their only means of defense is either having casted a spell prior to getting hit or their having proficiency in that save. The more common saves being least likely to have high ability scores with exception to the cleric and druid.

Fighters are not significantly better than casters when it comes to saves. Everyone gets a good one and a bad one.

If you never have to use it, you wasted a spell known/prepared on something so situational and should have prepared something better instead. Not only are you now only as good as the baseline, you've wasted your precious options on something you haven't used. It might as well had never been in your spells known at all.

Is carrying a sword and a longbow better than carrying just a sword?
Even if most of the time you fight creatures who engage in melee?

And it doesn't stop the opposition from refusing your requests. A friendly guard still can't let anyone into the treasure vault without signed documentation.

Then your ability check probably wouldn't have done it either. If it could have, at least the charm would have given you advantage on the check, and prevented the guard from attacking you if you failed.

 

[Stalker0]

I want to play Hercules or Achilles or etc. but those characters aren’t impressive next to Superman. They aren’t impressive next to a level 20 d&d wizard.

Honestly I think that’s setting the bar a bit high. I think the goal would be to fit Hercules in a more 10-14th level setting.

to me 20th level is meant to be a bit crazy sauce. At that point, I would expect a Hercules that is now more god than man, more than just a “strong fighter” but a “divine avatar”.

and if that’s not what you want to play I understand, there’s a reason the vast majority of people never play at those levels.

honestly if we can make levels 10-13 or so rock solid, and make fighters feel “epic” compared to full casters at that Point, I think we have done the job for the vast majority of people.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is, I think, why the fighter can't be considered in a vacuum. He needs to be compared to the other warrior-type character classes like barbarian, ranger, paladin, and even the monk and rogue. What warrior archetypes are best covered by each of those? Which ones need to be covered by the fighter? How do we make each of them distinct enough, even if they do share some similar traits?

The ranger. paladin and monk are all magical, and therefore have a much wider variety of options for high level abilities than classes that aren't.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I have A suggestion for this thread. Instead of trying to bring the wizard down to the the fighter or the fighter up to the wizard - let’s keep the power level of the fight and the wizard about the same as now and let’s just provide some interesting options for each.

Agreed. I dont even believe that a fighter can be brought to the same versatility as a spellcaster. Do we really believe that having the power to jump super high and whatnot is really what's missing from the fighter, anyway? And if you give charm/super move/auto-kill options to the fighter, can it still be considered a ''fighter''? I dont have the answer to those question, and I dont think its possible to find an answer that will satisfy a valid majority.

So instead, as Frog said, let the wizard be a wizard, and give the fighter meaningful option that makes its varying roles fun to play, instead of bringing the figther to do the things of a wizard. In the end, if the player really wanted a PC that can have the whole versatile array of a spellcaster, they would play a spellcaster, not a fighter.

In short, the breadth of options for the fighter should add to the general idea of a fighter, not make them another class entirely.

How would you do that? I dont know, myself.

 

[FrogReaver]

Agreed. I dont even believe that a fighter can be brought to the same versatility as a spellcaster. Do we really believe that having the power to jump super high and whatnot is really what's missing from the fighter, anyway? And if you give charm/super move/auto-kill options to the fighter, can it still be considered a ''fighter''? I dont have the answer to those question, and I dont think its possible to find an answer that will satisfy a valid majority.

So instead, as Frog said, let the wizard be a wizard, and give the fighter meaningful option that makes its varying roles fun to play, instead of bringing the figther to do the things of a wizard. In the end, if the player really wanted a PC that can have the whole versatile array of a spellcaster, they would play a spellcaster, not a fighter.

In short, the breadth of options for the fighter should add to the general idea of a fighter, not make them another class entirely.

How would you do that? I dont know, myself.

I think you start by removing some action economy restrictions.

Swapping weapons and equipping/unequiping shields as a free action. That’s minor but it would go a long way to making higher level fighters feel better. maybe even no more bonus action required for TWF.

since the high level fighter doesn’t get magical means of transportation he should get boosts to mounts.

Since the high level fighter doesn’t get magic to enhance his skills and abilities or to do things that only magic can I propose a pool of dice that he can spend on any skill in the fighters class list when he makes a skill check.

I think these kinds of options could go a long way. They are slight power boosts but still close to the same ballpark.

 

[FrogReaver]

Other ideas fighters get a huge boost to OA’s.

they get a +2 bonus to their saves

they can shout to either frighten or charm or remove fear or charm.

honestly shouts/war crys would be a Really cool feature space Where the fighter gets things to do other than just attack.

 

[GreyLord]

In the old TSR Fighters (and any martial character or Fighter sub-class as it was called) were FEARED by spellcasters. High Level Fighters even more so.

The first and primary reason is if a fighter hit the caster, the spell was disrupted. No save. It simply ended any chance for that spell to be cast as long as the warrior hit them prior to the spell being cast. This made archers (and multiple chances to hit the wizard) a scary proposition.

The High Level Fighter also had good saves. Their chances to save against any spell were inordinately HIGH compared to any version of the game after 3e. The Fighter was pretty resistant to magic, even if the wizard got the spell off.

And finally, as Fighters ability to hit (or proficiency bonus) went up far more quickly than any other class, a high level fighter's chances to hit a wizard, even a wizard with protection spells, was basically guaranteed.

Today, a High Level Fighter might not hit that wizard. They have multiple attacks (So did Fighters in the old TSR days, but their chances to hit were a LOT higher against a wizard's AC)...strike one against the Fighter. The Fighter doesn't get an inherent bonus to hit that is any better than any one else's ability. Their proficiency bonus is exactly that same (which still boggles my mind. It's like saying that professor in the library who's gone on digs for 5 years is going to have the same proficiency to hit with a chosen weapon as a trained soldier who's been trained to kill for the past 5 years). The Fighter has no inherent bonus over any other class anymore in this area.

[And there are those that might point to STR bonuses to hit...but many High Level Fighters would have those bonuses as well in the Old TSR days...and if you include Weapon Specialization and wishes...that STR could give them at least a +3 to hit, and with weapon specialization that could go up to +6...and that was on TOP of their normal bonuses to hit...which could be a +15 or +18 right there...they were going to hit the wizards FAR more often than a fighter does today...and they had multiple attacks on top of that too!!!).

Today, the High level fighter does not have good saves in every category. They will be weak in several areas which are easy for a Wizard to target and take the Fighter out.

Today, it's not as easy to simply disrupt a spell. The Wizard may be disturbed, but keep on going.

This is one MAJOR reason why Fighters have gotten a lot weaker against their spellcasting counterparts at high levels in modern D&D.

If one wants an epic Fighter...these are some of the things that probably should be addressed.

 

[FrogReaver]

I like the idea of the fighter getting a boost to 1 of persuasion, intimidation or deception. Maybe expertise. Maybe something different.

 

[GSHamster]

Perhaps flip the problem around. Let's say we have a party of 4 spellcasters. The BBEG is a high level fighter. What could we do to make her terrifying to the party?

I think the biggest necessity would be very high magic resistance. The BBEG would need to be able to shrug off or fight through most non-damage spells, and take minimal damage from damage spells.

Also the BBEG needs some way of stopping spellcasting. Like if she gets in melee combat with the spellcaster, the spellcaster simply shouldn't be able to get a spell off.