D&D 5E player knowlege vs character knowlege (spoiler)

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Not in the 10th printing PhB or the Essentials Kit Rulebook.
Huh, you appear correct. I was afb and the SRD source I checked had it capitalized, but the basic rules doesn't. Errata specifically calls out that charm person applies the charmed condition. This is a example of how not to use game jargon in a way that obscures it, I guess.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not in the 10th printing PhB or the Essentials Kit Rulebook.
Yeah. It just says, "it is charmed by you" in my PHB. Given the natural language rule of the edition, it's not at all obvious that it's the charmed condition. I would expect the victim of a charm person to be charmed by me.

The spell also creates a disconnect once you apply the charmed condition. The spell only makes the target view you as a friendly acquaintance and not even a friend. If some guy I met once and had a friendly chat with at a party got into a fight with my close friends, I'd certainly be able and willing to punch him, and while I would probably view him more favorably than a complete stranger, I don't think it would be strong enough to warrant advantage. The spell really needs to make the target view you as his best friend or something in order to warrant the charmed condition.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
We are not really talking about the GM controlling the character's feelings, thought's and action in general. But ultimately I see no reason to differentiate how mental and physical tasks are handled. Mental restrictions (your character simply doesn't know how to do that) are just as real than physical restrictions and it is perfectly fine to enforce them in the rare situation it is needed.
But why is the GM the better source for what a character thinks than the player? You assume here that the GM has the superior position, but I don't see why that should or must be so. If the answer is to ensure proper playing, that's either something the player is on-board with and so doesn't need your help, or it's a problem because not everyone agrees as to what's proper playing. The GM isn't in charge of this -- it's a table issue, not a game one. If, as I see more often, the issue is to protect the GM's plot, well, the answer to this is evident -- don't GM that way and it won't be a problem. Regardless, it's not apparent that it's the GM's responsibility in game to enforce how the GM thinks the PCs should act.

One thing I was thinking earlier is that a player describing the action in detail or in parts can kinda break the action declaration logic. Like if the player just said: "my character tries to make gunpowder" you would probably call for some sort of skill roll if you assumed that this was something that was at all possible (let's assume that in this instance it is possible by the physics of the setting) or just say they fail because no one in the setting knows how to do that. If the player instead starts to list the ingredients and tells how their character combines them, then they just succeed? I don't think so. I think that in the latter case the player is actually trying to declare the same action, just in more complicated way i.e. the character is trying to make gunpowder, and should be handled in the same way. This same issue applies to any task which is physically easy to do and the real difficulty is knowing what to do.
Well, firstly, the latter example is a list of action declarations that the GM should adjudicate, so the difference between the two isn't one of kind, but one of
degree.

Secondly, the list of assumptions necessary for your chain of events to occur is pretty weird. You first have the GM establish that gunpowder as it exists in the real world also is possible, in exactly the same formula, in the game world. Secondly, this formula must be known to the GM, else how can they adjudicate it as exactly the same as the real world. Thirdly, the GM must be adverse to the PCs developing the gunpowder -- that the GM has allowed for in the world. Fourth, in your second example, the GM must both know the formula for gunpowder (according to the second assumption) but also not recognize that the player is instantiating it through these action declarations until the final result occurs. Finally, the GM here is assumed to have the ability to say no so long as the precise formula isn't presented, but be utterly powerless if the player says the magic words of the formula.

This is a weird set of assumptions that ends up still failing to make the point that the GM needs the ability to control PC thoughts to prevent catastrophe -- it's perfectly preventable even with most of these weird assumptions in place, it's only the last one, where you beg the question, that weirdness occurs. By this I mean that you include in your assumptions that not preventing "metagaming" causes problems only to discover in your conclusion that not preventing "metagaming" causes problems. Well, no wonder, you've assumed your conclusion in the premise.



I fully agree that the players being good sports is ultimately the key. If the GM actually has to often step in and say 'no, you can't do that' then there probably is some fundamental miscommunication about the premises of the game or the setting. That being said, sometimes wrong assumptions or miscommunication about the details of the situation or the setting happen and in such a situation it is perfectly fine for the GM to clarify things.
Clarifying things doesn't involve telling players what their PCs think, it involves getting on the same page as to the fictional positioning. Either side can bend -- this isn't a GM to player thing only. I've, quite often, realized I've failed at establishing a shared understanding and chosen to go with what the players understand rather than what I initially intended because it's easier to correct one person than a whole table of players.
This is a good point. A lot of people like to play D&D in rather gamist manner, as a game of 'solving' dungeons. In such an approach fussing about whether the character actually knows the monsters vulnerability might feel like an unnecessary burden. That being said, this goes back to what I have said may times: it is not good idea to make plot critical mysteries that hinge on things that the players actually know but their characters don't. Thus when setting up a mystery, whether it was what weapon can harm the monster or who the murderer is, the GM should endeavour to build it in a manner that such an discrepancy doesn't exist. I still feel that this is not the same than the players adhering to more tangential limitations of their characters' knowledge i.e. 'no one in this setting knows how to make gunpowder,' 'my character is uneducated idiot from backwoods of nowhere and thus cannot describe the exact details of the political system of Thay'
My 5e games aren't gamist at all. If I was playing Moldvoy Basic, then they'd be very gamist. The rulesets, despite both being D&D, are very different. Still, my players knowing about trolls means that forcing them to pretend they don't with some new characters is pretty boring and frustrating, so we skip that. We skip worrying about anything but portraying the character how the player wishes to portray the character. I don't police this. And, lo and behold, I get players that have deep and rich characters, and put their character's desires to the forefront. I get this because I engage those characters, make their wants and goals matter so there's reward for playing to those, and don't worry if I don't understand why a player might chose a certain actions. I might ask, out of curiosity, but not to correct or change. I don't need to understand why, I just need to be able to adjudicate the action. If I present challenging scenes and don't predicate those challenges on secret information the players already know, then I get great roleplay and engagement from my players -- all without ever once worrying about "metagaming." If my players guess, or know, something already, that's no sweat off my brow -- I've got infinite dragons. I can let that one go and do better next time.

Honestly, I'd suggest getting out and playing in a game that isn't D&D. I'd recommend one of the PbtA games, or a FATE game, run by someone that really loves those games and has experience with them. Experience a game that's very different from D&D -- it'll make your D&D game better. Even if you chose to change nothing, you'll better know why you like the things you do.
 

But why is the GM the better source for what a character thinks than the player? You assume here that the GM has the superior position, but I don't see why that should or must be so. If the answer is to ensure proper playing, that's either something the player is on-board with and so doesn't need your help, or it's a problem because not everyone agrees as to what's proper playing. The GM isn't in charge of this -- it's a table issue, not a game one.
If it is about not everyone agreeing how to play then yes, It is not an issue to be solved within the game. I have said this many times. But these situation in practice are not about that, they're about the player having misunderstood or didn't know of something and the GM clarifying. It is literally no different than the player thinking that the orc was closer than it actually was.

If, as I see more often, the issue is to protect the GM's plot, well, the answer to this is evident -- don't GM that way and it won't be a problem. Regardless, it's not apparent that it's the GM's responsibility in game to enforce how the GM thinks the PCs should act.
No, it's not about that.

Well, firstly, the latter example is a list of action declarations that the GM should adjudicate, so the difference between the two isn't one of kind, but one of
degree.

Secondly, the list of assumptions necessary for your chain of events to occur is pretty weird. You first have the GM establish that gunpowder as it exists in the real world also is possible, in exactly the same formula, in the game world. Secondly, this formula must be known to the GM, else how can they adjudicate it as exactly the same as the real world. Thirdly, the GM must be adverse to the PCs developing the gunpowder -- that the GM has allowed for in the world. Fourth, in your second example, the GM must both know the formula for gunpowder (according to the second assumption) but also not recognize that the player is instantiating it through these action declarations until the final result occurs. Finally, the GM here is assumed to have the ability to say no so long as the precise formula isn't presented, but be utterly powerless if the player says the magic words of the formula.

This is a weird set of assumptions that ends up still failing to make the point that the GM needs the ability to control PC thoughts to prevent catastrophe -- it's perfectly preventable even with most of these weird assumptions in place, it's only the last one, where you beg the question, that weirdness occurs. By this I mean that you include in your assumptions that not preventing "metagaming" causes problems only to discover in your conclusion that not preventing "metagaming" causes problems. Well, no wonder, you've assumed your conclusion in the premise.

Certainly the physical possibility of gunbowder existing but knowledge of it not is trivially true for any pre-gunpowder historical setting? Or any setting that would be defined to be similar to one that this would still apply? Furthermore, don't get hung up on gunpowder, the same applies to many purely mechanical tasks where it it would be super hard to imagine how it would not work even in fictional setting. Ancient Romans most likely had required metallurgy to physically produce full plate, but they didn't.

Oh, and the thing about the GM knowledge is rather interesting. So if the GM doesn't know what the thing the PC is doing would logically result they can say it doesn't happen, but if they do know they can't? Whoa!



Clarifying things doesn't involve telling players what their PCs think, it involves getting on the same page as to the fictional positioning. Either side can bend -- this isn't a GM to player thing only. I've, quite often, realized I've failed at establishing a shared understanding and chosen to go with what the players understand rather than what I initially intended because it's easier to correct one person than a whole table of players.
Yeah, GM can totally do that. Sometimes that is the most sensible course of action, sometimes it isn't. And sometimes some thoughts are effectively 'fictional positioning.' If no one, or at least their character. cannot know someting then the GM is fully within their rights to tell the player that.

My 5e games aren't gamist at all. If I was playing Moldvoy Basic, then they'd be very gamist. The rulesets, despite both being D&D, are very different. Still, my players knowing about trolls means that forcing them to pretend they don't with some new characters is pretty boring and frustrating, so we skip that. We skip worrying about anything but portraying the character how the player wishes to portray the character. I don't police this. And, lo and behold, I get players that have deep and rich characters, and put their character's desires to the forefront. I get this because I engage those characters, make their wants and goals matter so there's reward for playing to those, and don't worry if I don't understand why a player might chose a certain actions. I might ask, out of curiosity, but not to correct or change. I don't need to understand why, I just need to be able to adjudicate the action. If I present challenging scenes and don't predicate those challenges on secret information the players already know, then I get great roleplay and engagement from my players -- all without ever once worrying about "metagaming." If my players guess, or know, something already, that's no sweat off my brow -- I've got infinite dragons. I can let that one go and do better next time.
I don't worry about it or 'police' it either because I don't have to. Players understand that their characters are people in fictional setting and that puts some limitations on their knowledge, not do their resent if Gm sometimes has to clarify their understanding. Similarly as a player I am merely thankful if the GM clarifies something I had misunderstood or assumed wrongly.

Honestly, I'd suggest getting out and playing in a game that isn't D&D. I'd recommend one of the PbtA games, or a FATE game, run by someone that really loves those games and has experience with them. Experience a game that's very different from D&D -- it'll make your D&D game better. Even if you chose to change nothing, you'll better know why you like the things you do.
I have playd a lot of other games, freeformed, LARPed and written my own homebrew games and then ran them. D&D is probably not among my most played games. This is really not just about the D&D.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
My 5e games aren't gamist at all. If I was playing Moldvoy Basic, then they'd be very gamist. The rulesets, despite both being D&D, are very different. Still, my players knowing about trolls means that forcing them to pretend they don't with some new characters is pretty boring and frustrating, so we skip that.

5e in general is not gamist, I agree. However, thinking of the game as a game by bringing OOC knowledge in and then coating it in a see through finish by phrasing it as "I think...", followed by everyone else pretending not to see what you doing, is gamist. If you don't want to play that way, no problem. Different strokes for different folks.

#notapowergrab
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
5e in general is not gamist, I agree. However, thinking of the game as a game by bringing OOC knowledge in and then coating it in a see through finish by phrasing it as "I think...", followed by everyone else pretending not to see what you doing, is gamist. If you don't want to play that way, no problem. Different strokes for different folks.

To suspect somebody else of using OOC knowledge (whether with gamist intentions or not) requires us to pop out of the fiction and be thinking about that player, not their character.

Imagine that a member of an adventuring party, maybe even the dumbest, most sheltered, least experienced member of a party, says to their companions, "OMG that stranger we just met...she's a Lich!!!!"

What would your character do?

You know, roleplay.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
To suspect somebody else of using OOC knowledge (whether with gamist intentions or not) requires us to pop out of the fiction and be thinking about that player, not their character.

Imagine that a member of an adventuring party, maybe even the dumbest, most sheltered, least experienced member of a party, says to their companions, "OMG that stranger we just met...she's a Lich!!!!"

What would your character do?

You know, roleplay.

Yes, just stay in character and react in response to this. Easy. But people who ascribe to this viewpoint typically won't do that in my experience. Why?

Probably for the same reason that DMs who are concerned about "metagaming" don't do two simple things to mitigate its effects and remove the incentive to do it. They will steadfastly refuse and come up with all manner of reasons why they can't be bothered to solve the problem their own DMing is creating. Why?

Likely because it's not about roleplaying in my view - it's about control cloaked in group identity.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Imagine that a member of an adventuring party, maybe even the dumbest, most sheltered, least experienced member of a party, says to their companions, "OMG that stranger we just met...she's a Lich!!!!"

What would your character do?

Going back a decade in the real world, it feels like if a person randomly blurted out things that are usually wrong or unfounded, people might disassociate from them or see if they need help. In more recent times I'm not so sure :-/ And if they randomly blurt out things that are usually correct, folks might start treating them like some sort of augury (which would be a lot less rare a thing in a D&D world than in ours!).

I'm kind of curious how most players would have their characters react, and how most DMs would have the NPCs react if they were trying to stay in character.

For my character , "What!?!?" would probably be the first thing that comes back in game.
 


G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Going back a decade in the real world, it feels like if a person randomly blurted out things that are usually wrong or unfounded, people might disassociate from them or see if they need help. In more recent times I'm not so sure :-/ And if they randomly blurt out things that are usually correct, folks might start treating them like some sort of augury (which would be a lot less rare a thing in a D&D world than in ours!).

I'm kind of curious how most players would have their characters react, and how most DMs would have the NPCs react if they were trying to stay in character.

For my character , "What!?!?" would probably be the first thing that comes back in game.

It would be somewhere in a range from deep skepticism/disbelief, to trusting their judgment.

Of course what your character "would" do might vary considerably. I get the sense some people would try to pick the most likely thing, and go with that. I like it when other players go with the surprising answer.
 

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