D&D 5E player knowlege vs character knowlege (spoiler)

[Crimson Longinus]

Yup. Logically it does.

Ok, I just wanted to clarify as some people seemed to disagree.

What's the problem?

If you don't think it is a problem it is not a problem.

 

[Cadence]

I actually see this differently. I think the player tries to take the action, strains against the effects of the spell, and automatically fails. It's really no different from a missed sword stroke, except that the outcome is certain so doesn't require a dice roll.

Are all 'action declarations' by players actually 'attempted action declarations'?

If the player says "I draw my dagger ", maybe they can't because it was previously pick pocketed (pick sheathed?) and they didn't notice. So when they say
I draw my dagger and expect that it justalways happens, it feels like kind of a rewind to get a "well actually". If they say "I attempt to draw my dagger" then there's no rewind when the narration picks up at the attempt and the DM says "your sheath is empty!?!?". Similarly if they say "I draw my dagger" but know it's only an attempt (that usually happens) there is no problem.

(So in MtG a player might colloquially say "I cast Shriekmaw and blow up your commander" and moves to tap the land and put the Shriekmaw card on the table.. When the other player says "hold on", the first player may pick up the Shriekmaw, hold it above the table, and say "Shriekmaw on the stack". Or they may just leave it there waiting to hear what the other player does to thwart the proposed arrival of the Shriekmaw on the Table and death of the commander).

 

[Guest 6801328]

Are all 'action declarations' by players actually 'attempted action declarations'?

If the player says "I draw my dagger ", maybe they can't because it was previously pick pocketed (pick sheathed?) and they didn't notice. So when they say
I draw my dagger and expect that it justalways happens, it feels like kind of a rewind to get a "well actually". If they say "I attempt to draw my dagger" then there's no rewind when the narration picks up at the attempt and the DM says "your sheath is empty!?!?". Similarly if they say "I draw my dagger" but know it's only an attempt (that usually happens) there is no problem.

Yeah, good example. Sometimes you do have to rewind, so maybe I didn't express that well.

Sometimes a player is going too fast and skipping over some steps ("I tell the clerk that I want to buy a lottery ticket." "Whoah...hold on there...the door to the store is locked.") We have to be willing to rewind in those cases to adjudicate those steps, otherwise players would have to narrate everything in excruciating detail, even when the details didn't matter. ("I put my hand on my wineskin." "All good." "Remove it from my belt?" "Fine." "Put my other hand on the stopper?" "Whoah! Whoah! Wasn't that in your pocket?")

But that is categorically different from rewinding not to resolve the action in finer granularity, but to take over control of the character's actions because the DM thinks the character should do something else.

 

[Cadence]

Page 5 of the DMG says you're wrong, by the way.

"Sometimes mediating the rules means setting limits. If a player tells you, "I want to run up and attack the orc," but the character doesn't have enough movement to reach the orc, you say, "It's too far away to move up and still attack. What would you like to do instead?"

Here we have a player declaring an action that breaks the rules. The DM mediates(adjudicates) the rules setting a limit(saying no you can't do that) and then asks for something else.

Aren't they only expressing a desire and not an action? It seems mean to quash a desire like that. If they actually say they run up and attack, why isn't the raw adjudication to allow them to run up part way and tell them they aren't close enough to swing?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Well, if you don’t see a difference between “because of the rules of the game your character is physically unable to accomplish the task you attempted” and “because I find it unrealistic that your character would have the information that I think would be necessary to arrive at the conclusion that the action you declared is the optimal one, I’m telling you that you are not even allowed to attempt that action”....

...then there probably isn’t a good ending to this conversation.

@Maxperson I want to retract and apologize for this post.

It was annoying and condescending when at least two people, early in the thread said, "Well if you can't tell the difference between character knowledge and player knowledge..."

Yes, of course we know the difference. We're just saying that we don't think it's worth the hassle and ramifications of trying to police the difference.

Likewise, I'm sure you see the difference, but you probably have your reasons for thinking that they should still be treated the same way.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Aren't they only expressing a desire and not an action? It seems mean to quash a desire like that. If they actually say they run up and attack, why isn't the raw adjudication to allow them to run up part way and tell them they aren't close enough to swing?

It's not adjudication at all. They are (quite kindly) interpreting the statement as desire, not action declaration, describing how it will be adjudicated if they try, and giving them a chance to come up with a different plan.

If the player uses up their movement rate, there is no adjudication necessary to inform them that a) they have no more movement, according to the mechanics of the game, and b) they cannot reach the orc with their sword, according to the mechanics of the game.

The DM is most definitely NOT saying, "You may not attempt that."

 

[Guest 6801328]

Here's a thought: you can tell it's not adjudication if another player could say it with the same authority as the DM.

Alternately, "If the authority comes from the written rules, not from the DM, there's no adjudication."

 

[Maxperson]

But there's no problem or disputed matter here, and the DM is not making a judgment or decision. There is none to make; the rules are unambiguous. The player didn't know or remember the rules, and somebody (which in Max's example happens to be the DM) reminds the person of what the rules are.

Clear things have been disputed before and will be again. Courts make formal judgments and toss out lawsuits because of clear rules all the time.

In the case of my example and the DMG example on page 5, the player is trying to take an action that clearly violates the rules. The DM then steps in and makes a judgment saying, "Hey, the rules on this are clear and you can't do that."

Referees in Football games do it, too. When one team lines up 12 men on the field, they haven't taken an action yet and the rules are clear. When the ball is snapped, the Ref then tosses a flag and adjudicates the situation, halts the action telling the team no, you can't do that, and then assesses a penalty to the offending team.

It is a formal judgment, even if it's to tell the person no, because there's a rule preventing it. The clarification you mention is just the reason behind the judgment.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson I want to retract and apologize for this post.

It was annoying and condescending when at least two people, early in the thread said, "Well if you can't tell the difference between character knowledge and player knowledge..."

Yes, of course we know the difference. We're just saying that we don't think it's worth the hassle and ramifications of trying to police the difference.

Likewise, I'm sure you see the difference, but you probably have your reasons for thinking that they should still be treated the same way.

I do see the difference and wasn't arguing that they were the same. We were having two different conversations. One about player/character information, and one about adjudication resulting in prevention of an action declaration.

 

[Maxperson]

Here's a thought: you can tell it's not adjudication if another player could say it with the same authority as the DM.

Alternately, "If the authority comes from the written rules, not from the DM, there's no adjudication."

A player can't. They can remind the player, but only the DM can say no.