Level Up (A5E) Deadlier combat

[toucanbuzz]

I've seen too many combats with characters bouncing up and down, from 0hp, getting a Healing Word to give a handful back, getting knocked down again. There is no sense of fear to going into combat....

I've been using a homebrew for the last 3 years in response to this called Vitality, which replaces Death Saves, and more accurately reflects what HP actually represents (your ability to avoid real damage vs. vitality which represents the actual damage your body takes). If someone, in reality, was hit by giant's clubs or dragon's breath or even swords on a routine basis, they'd be a mess within a few weeks unable to move or walk.

If you've played 2E AD&D (-10 hp) or D&D 3rd (diehard), this will sound familiar. Remove Death Saves from your game and replace with below:

• At 0 hp, instead of a Death Save, a player may opt to gain the Unconscious or Staggered Condition.
  • Any future damage taken in either condition goes to Vitality.
  • If a melee enemy opts to knock you unconscious, you cannot choose.
• Vitality: this represents the actual damage your body can take. A 20th level fighter still dies when a sword is shoved in his stomach, just as much as a 1st level character.
  • Vitality is your 1st level hit points and only changes if your CON score changes.
• Unconscious:
  • Take 1 point of vitality damage & make a DC10 death saving throw at end of your turn. Success = stabilized. Failure = at the end of each of your turns, take 1 point of vitality damage. Natural 1 = take 1d4 instead.
  • This condition ends if you have hit points.
• Staggered:
  • Gain 1 Death Point.
  • You may continue to take Actions on your turn.
  • If you ever have 2 Death Points, gain a Lingering Injury (DMG p272).
  • At 3 Death Points, you die but may, at DM discretion, use your dying act to impact a pending d20 roll (heroic death).
  • A staggered character has disadvantage on all rolls, has no movement (e.g. must use Dash action to move), and all enemies have advantage against any abilities used by the character (other than items, such as wands).
  • This condition ends if the player has hit points.
• Healing:
  • Hit points heal as usual.
  • Vitality heals at 1 + CON modifier per long rest, minimum 1. You can only regain Vitality if your HP is full.
  • Magical healing only repairs Vitality if hit points are full, and even then, only at 1 for every 10 points of healing that could be done (e.g. a healing potion at max heals 10 hp, or 1 Vitality, but a healing word of 1d4+4, max 8, does absolutely nothing for vitality).
  • Regeneration is always counted as at least a full 10.
  • You lose 1 Death Point every Long Rest.

It sounds like a lot at first, but it's really simply drawing up on 2E AD&D (revised) and D&D 3rd ideas of what happens when you reach 0 hp. This cripples the "whack a mole" syndrome and makes the real damage linger a bit. Even going unconscious will add up. It's done wonders for our games.

 

[MoonSong]

Makes dying a bit more complex and a bigger drain on party resources. Would you die after reaching a certain negative score (-10 in 3E, - constitution score in Pathfinder)? Healer might need to spend multiple spells slots and multiple actions to bring someone back, stopping that player doing something more fun.

Actually this sounds like a lot of fun. A great improvement over the current set up where you just sneeze and bring an ally up without losing any steam.

I think it would be hard to remove ranged healing but keep Level Up compatible with basic 5E, there are too many effects which already exist that would need to be rewritten. Healing Word, Mass Cure Wounds, Celestial warlock healing ability and Divine Soul sorcerer with the reach meta magic to name a few of the top of my head.

If your Divine Soul is using one of her extremely limited picks on reach I bet she's earned the right to have ranged healing. Twin is near mandatory for a Divine soul, and quicken/subtle are very competitive for the other slot. Reach, I haven't seen anybody ever pick reach.

Make all healing spells 10 minute cast times. Thus there can be no "in-combat" healing. Gameplay will change dramatically if you get knocked out of a fight at 0 HP with no way to get back up and re-enter.

On the other hand, not being allowed to be an in-combat healer is no fun at all.

How about monsters with auras, spells and/or abilities that temporarily prevent healing?

I am reminded of Dark Souls, where there was an item you could use to prevent nearby players from healing for a short while.

Such an effect could be added to any monster by the DM, although I would probably reserve it for powerful foes, like bosses.

Maybe these auras prevent healing of unconscious characters? Make a reason to have preventive healing instead of this mathematically mandated waiting until they drop?

 

[Stalker0]

yes, that's a simple change that would effectively make combat much more deadly. I like the negative Con myself. But I also think it might swing into TOO deadly. Getting hit at low hit points would have a very easy chance to kill someone even without a critical hit. And critical hits, that would also quickly reach the limit. But I do like the simplicity without having to change any other rule.

it is too deadly for low hp characters to stay in combat. That’s why they retreat and drink potions, dive for cover, or get protections from allies instead of swinging away waiting to go unconscious and getting an immediate heal back up.

 

[Imaculata]

Maybe these auras prevent healing of unconscious characters? Make a reason to have preventive healing instead of this mathematically mandated waiting until they drop?

I like that idea. Although contrary to what @Lanefan suggested, I am in favor of making such an ability clearly visible to the players. The goal is not to be unfairly harsh, but to encourage a more careful approach to combat. If a player goes down near an enemy with this aura, they won't be able to get back up unless their whole party deals with the threat first. This would make players less prone to leap into the fray, and remove this issue of players being brought back with ranged healing all the time. For that purpose, being able to see the aura is probably good design.

You don't need to change anything about the healing spells either, and its optional. DM's can give their monsters auras, but they don't have to.

I think we also need to be careful that what we add is simple to use, and doesn't add a ton of extra rules to the game. We should want 5E to remain simple and easy.

 

[Imaculata]

It sounds like a lot at first, but it's really simply drawing up on 2E AD&D (revised) and D&D 3rd ideas of what happens when you reach 0 hp. This cripples the "whack a mole" syndrome and makes the real damage linger a bit. Even going unconscious will add up. It's done wonders for our games.

It's an interesting system, but it does sound like a lot. It also sounds a bit like having two healthbars. I do like the rule that vitality can only be restored when you are at full health.

 

[DEFCON 1]

On the other hand, not being allowed to be an in-combat healer is no fun at all.

Well, the thread isn't about making sure a small segment of the gaming population can have fun their only way possible... it's about making combat deadlier. And casting healing during combat is one of the easiest ways to make sure that deadliness never happens.

Yes, it would suck for those players who only wish to participate in the D&D combat mini-game by healing people... but for most other tables who want deadlier combat, it would work beautifully.

 

[Quartz]

More complex (but that's what we're here for)

Point of order: we're not here to make things complex but make things better.

 

[ThatGuySteve]

Point of order: we're not here to make things complex but make things better.

Fair point, I'm conflating crunchier with more complex. I'm sure there is a crunchy solution that is still elegant.

 

[toucanbuzz]

It's an interesting system, but it does sound like a lot. It also sounds a bit like having two healthbars. I do like the rule that vitality can only be restored when you are at full health.

In gameplay, it's run pretty smoothly as it only comes into play at 0hp, and it was a demand as a group to counter the silliness of "whack a mole." It's added a whole new dimension & thrill that allows players to keep contributing, albeit with risk. At 0hp, the next hit might be your last. And that's fine. No human being could survive an actual T-Rex bite or Frost Giant axe hit.

Finally, it never sat right with me that, RAW at 0hp, a frost giant could then "hit" you with an axe the size of a tree and you would survive (2 death failures). The next round, you might even pop up on your feet (natural 20).

Anyways, our solution for "grittier" healing.

 

[Quartz]

It's an interesting system, but it does sound like a lot. It also sounds a bit like having two healthbars.

Two health bars is nothing new: the Hero System has STUN and BODY. If STUN goes to 0 you are unconscious; if BODY goes to 0 you are dead.