Level Up (A5E) Deadlier combat

[DND_Reborn]

the “healing yo-yo” problem exists because the threshold to die on a single attack is simply too high. Once characters are 5-6th there’s just no amount of damage on a single attack that is going to finish them off, so there is no risk in waiting to heal.

I have tried lots of house rules on death saves...automatic death save on unconscious, hidden saves (you don’t roll them until your healed),failures last until long rest.

nothing ever really did the job. Then I lowered the death threshold back to the old negative 10 and it worked like a charm. I noticed an immediate change in party behavior, people took healing seriously.

So I think the change is very simple.

1) if an attack would put you at negative 10, you die. Otherwise your unconscious at 0 hp.

2) any new hit that does 10 or more damage kills you. Otherwise it gives a death save (no need for crits to add 2 Saves anymore)

3) roll Death saves like before.

4) healing starts at 0 and goes from there.

This removes the negative hit point tracking from previous editions but eliminates the yo-yo problem, because no person is going to be comfortable at low hp with no healing, as they are risking death with the next hit.

if people like con score instead that’s fine too, the key is to a number that a decent attack or spell could manage to do

The going to -10 reminds me of the Damage Threshold we used to use, DT = CON score + proficiency bonus. That was the damage it took to kill you in a single blow while a 0 HP. We dropped it for incorporating exhaustion into it so it represent the death spiral, but I know that most people don't want that.

 

[dave2008]

@dave2008 and @Raith5

Yeah, monsters don't need more HP except solos. We've been granting solo encounters max HP because otherwise they are dead in 3 rounds...

I think reducing PC HP is a better route than increasing monster damage. Also, introducing rider effects for larger monsters should be standard IMO. Giants, for example, should be able to attack two adjacent targets with one attack, and force targets to make STR saves to not be knocked prone, etc.

People often talk about monsters not being interesting enough, so I think more riders would help that, too. shrug

I agree, As I have said before, I think the game works better if the PCs have less HP (especially after 10th level or so). However, that is not something LevelUp! is going to do (for compatibility reasons). So I think looking for different solutions is best in this thread. However, I am definitely using a soft HP cap at 10th level in my next campaign.

 

[Helldritch]

Some nice ideas here. Have to think them over...

Do you allow spells like Greater Restoration to restore consciousness?

I think he does allow it. More ressources spent is always good.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would just like combat on day 1 to have at least a chance of mattering to the character on day 2, mechanically. If that means critical effects of some kind, so be it.

 

[Asisreo]

I would just like combat on day 1 to have at least a chance of mattering to the character on day 2, mechanically. If that means critical effects of some kind, so be it.

There is 1 thing that long rests do not completely recover: Hit dice. One of the ways you could make consecutive long rests matter is by pushing their HP far enough that they must constantly use a large portion of HD each adventure. Meaning it isn't until they can get relatively peaceful long rests consecutively that they can be completely refreshed.

 

[Nebulous]

Make all healing spells 10 minute cast times. Thus there can be no "in-combat" healing. Gameplay will change dramatically if you get knocked out of a fight at 0 HP with no way to get back up and re-enter.

That would do it. I would get horrible blowback from players though, and they would ask for lots of healing potions and wands of cure wounds to compensate.

 

[ThatGuySteve]

There is 1 thing that long rests do not completely recover: Hit dice. One of the ways you could make consecutive long rests matter is by pushing their HP far enough that they must constantly use a large portion of HD each adventure. Meaning it isn't until they can get relatively peaceful long rests consecutively that they can be completely refreshed.

I'd like something new, a new feature or mechanic, that means there are more meaningful lasting consequences. I think the purpose of the project is for crunchier systems.

Just using hit dice as they are isn't doing it for me. And yes, generally my parties are running on less than half hit dice but the prospect of less healing tomorrow doesn't seem to affect decision making much.

 

[Nebulous]

the “healing yo-yo” problem exists because the threshold to die on a single attack is simply too high. Once characters are 5-6th there’s just no amount of damage on a single attack that is going to finish them off, so there is no risk in waiting to heal.

I have tried lots of house rules on death saves...automatic death save on unconscious, hidden saves (you don’t roll them until your healed),failures last until long rest.

nothing ever really did the job. Then I lowered the death threshold back to the old negative 10 and it worked like a charm. I noticed an immediate change in party behavior, people took healing seriously.

So I think the change is very simple.

1) if an attack would put you at negative 10, you die. Otherwise your unconscious at 0 hp.

2) any new hit that does 10 or more damage kills you. Otherwise it gives a death save (no need for crits to add 2 Saves anymore)

3) roll Death saves like before.

4) healing starts at 0 and goes from there.

This removes the negative hit point tracking from previous editions but eliminates the yo-yo problem, because no person is going to be comfortable at low hp with no healing, as they are risking death with the next hit.

if people like con score instead that’s fine too, the key is to a number that a decent attack or spell could manage to do

yes, that's a simple change that would effectively make combat much more deadly. I like the negative Con myself. But I also think it might swing into TOO deadly. Getting hit at low hit points would have a very easy chance to kill someone even without a critical hit. And critical hits, that would also quickly reach the limit. But I do like the simplicity without having to change any other rule.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Getting hit at low hit points would have a very easy chance to kill someone even without a critical hit. And critical hits, that would also quickly reach the limit.

But that is the very point of the idea, isn't it?

Having used -10 in 1E and 2E for decades, it certainly did the job there. Of course, PCs had much fewer HP in general, back in the day.

 

[Nebulous]

But that is the very point of the idea, isn't it?

Having used -10 in 1E and 2E for decades, it certainly did the job there. Of course, PCs had much fewer HP in general, back in the day.

yeah, it's the point. I like it myself, but my players would not. I would get rid of Exhaustion at negative that I use now.