Level Up (A5E) Where to put ability bonuses during character creation

[doctorbadwolf]

Ah, ok. From that response, I take it that I misinterpreted "people who dislike races being inherently better at certain things than other races". I took it to mean "people who don't want races to have any differences." Which I haven't seen advocated.

So by "certain things" you meant specifically "dice rolls using a given attribute"?

Since even without ASIs all the races are better at certain things (for example, an elf is better at resisting charm spells) I didn't parse your sentence as I now think you intended.

I spoke in the context of the discussion I was replying to, so yes, ability scores.

 

[Levendor]

I think this is best myself. At the ASI levels, you gain a feat and a +1 ASI. This would give you more overall, but keep the lower levels more challenging. I might just do this for our tables and see what others think.

I really like where you are going with this!

I know this is an informal poll, but herein lies the issue with generating a unified system. I just think it is so complicated, but well worth the effort to figure it out. Decisions regarding feats and ASIs as the pc progresses affects starting AS bonuses (however they are or are not determined) and vice versa.

So is there a hard ceiling on total AS points up to and including level 20? Now: after point buy, it seems every pc is guaranteed like 3 ASI from racial and from 0 to 10? ASI from class progression (a lot more for fighter, right?).

With more flexibility in the system as a whole, I feel like a good direction would be class features and feats being a single "thing" with more choices, more often as the pc progresses. This means a lot more work for this noble and much needed endeavor that I only discovered yesterday... reconciling feats, half feats (that give +1 ASI), class features (that progress in power and with hard prerequisite features prior to them), and +2 ASI class features (i get it that ive been working out and training everyday, and one day I wake up going from 16.99 str to 17.00 str... or I wake up one day finally being a master at that feat I've been practicing for weeks/months... but how do i go from 16.99 to 18 overnight?). It likely takes a prerequisite system (not simple, but crunchy and flexible, as the goal states), so that all of the four 5e "things" can be one thing.

So now, say there is 3x ASI for racial and 4x two-point ASIs for a typical 2-class level 20 pc, and about 8 class/subclass features along the way.... so how about a half-feat at every odd level (and no starting racial ASI). Maybe levels 2, 3, 4 are class core features (no half-feat at level 3). Nerf some of the very best feats, since they come with an ASI, and prerequisite them, so that GWM part 2 give the best and full benefit (and you gained 2 AS points alongside those 2 half feat).

Anyway, this ramble is not meant as a suggestion or solution. Its just to voice the interdependency of every small tweak upon the next 300 pages of core rules.

 

[Haldrik]

Mulling:

+1 from class
+1 from background
+1 from unique individual (floating)

 

[DND_Reborn]

I really like where you are going with this!

I know this is an informal poll, but herein lies the issue with generating a unified system. I just think it is so complicated, but well worth the effort to figure it out. Decisions regarding feats and ASIs as the pc progresses affects starting AS bonuses (however they are or are not determined) and vice versa.

So is there a hard ceiling on total AS points up to and including level 20? Now: after point buy, it seems every pc is guaranteed like 3 ASI from racial and from 0 to 10? ASI from class progression (a lot more for fighter, right?).

With more flexibility in the system as a whole, I feel like a good direction would be class features and feats being a single "thing" with more choices, more often as the pc progresses. This means a lot more work for this noble and much needed endeavor that I only discovered yesterday... reconciling feats, half feats (that give +1 ASI), class features (that progress in power and with hard prerequisite features prior to them), and +2 ASI class features (i get it that ive been working out and training everyday, and one day I wake up going from 16.99 str to 17.00 str... or I wake up one day finally being a master at that feat I've been practicing for weeks/months... but how do i go from 16.99 to 18 overnight?). It likely takes a prerequisite system (not simple, but crunchy and flexible, as the goal states), so that all of the four 5e "things" can be one thing.

So now, say there is 3x ASI for racial and 4x two-point ASIs for a typical 2-class level 20 pc, and about 8 class/subclass features along the way.... so how about a half-feat at every odd level (and no starting racial ASI). Maybe levels 2, 3, 4 are class core features (no half-feat at level 3). Nerf some of the very best feats, since they come with an ASI, and prerequisite them, so that GWM part 2 give the best and full benefit (and you gained 2 AS points alongside those 2 half feat).

Anyway, this ramble is not meant as a suggestion or solution. Its just to voice the interdependency of every small tweak upon the next 300 pages of core rules.

Welcome to EnWorld! And thanks for the praise. I wish I could take sole credit for it, but it is something I have hashed through with others (that particular idea with @vincegetorix ).

 

[Guest 6801328]

I spoke in the context of the discussion I was replying to, so yes, ability scores.

Gotcha.

But now that we've got that sorted out, is there any chance you might see how characterizing people who think racial ASIs are problematic as "people who dislike races being inherently better at certain things than other races" might be as misleading as characterizing those who want to keep racial ASIs as, oh, perhaps, "people who can't look beyond tradition" or "people who think that all that defines a character is attribute scores" or something else of that nature?

 

[Azzy]

Other: I'd say split between species and class. If not class, then background.

 

[jmucchiello]

Now do Spartans and Athenians.

Or Norfolk military tradition and New York Bohemian tradition.

Or New York low-class and New York high-rollers.

Or Jocks and Nerds.

Social groups at any level, be they tribes, villages, city-states, or nations are not mono-cultures. If you go into this assuming that they are, of course you'll get weird results.

Sure, the Spartans were no less wise than the Athenians. They are, after all, part of Ancient Greece. Spartan Military might be a background.

Jocks and nerds are all from the same culture (mid century America?) so you would not give that culture a bonus to either group. Jock is a background. Nerd is a background

The New Yorker example makes me think your concept of culture is not mine. Those two groups you mention are part of the same culture. They are Americans. Culture is a broad umbrella. It's not the Yancy St gang versus the Fulton St. gang. High roller might be a background.

 

[EscherEnigma]

Sure, the Spartans were no less wise than the Athenians. They are, after all, part of Ancient Greece. Spartan Military might be a background.

Jocks and nerds are all from the same culture (mid century America?) so you would not give that culture a bonus to either group. Jock is a background. Nerd is a background

The New Yorker example makes me think your concept of culture is not mine. Those two groups you mention are part of the same culture. They are Americans. Culture is a broad umbrella. It's not the Yancy St gang versus the Fulton St. gang. High roller might be a background.

I get the feeling you didn't read to the end of my post.

 

[jmucchiello]

I get the feeling you didn't read to the end of my post.

Perhaps I didn't.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think this is best myself. At the ASI levels, you gain a feat and a +1 ASI. This would give you more overall, but keep the lower levels more challenging. I might just do this for our tables and see what others think.

My group does this. (Yes, on top of the 32 pb)

But since we strongly view the NPCs as the easiest way to adjust challenge, and prefer to leave PC abilities alone, our priorities may not match up to others’.

But it works great for us. Only change needed is to flesh out monsters more, which I was doing before these changes.

I’ve been surprised at how robustly balanced 5e actually is.

In our games, started at points ranging from 5 years ago to recent test games to feel out gear additions and new rules for space D&D, and , we use Level 1 Bonus Feat, +1 ASI at class feat levels when choosing a feat

• Standard Point Buy
• Rolled Stats (4d6 drop lowest reroll 1s, reroll bad sets)
• 32 Point Buy
  

And all the games run equally well, with no noticeable hiccups, and I’m able to use the D&D beyond encounter builder for them all. Before that, I used the Sly Flourish guidelines.

The biggest difference is whether players optimize, and even then it just adds a little extra prep time to important combats.