Level Up (A5E) Do Player Characters Have Average Population Stat Distributions?

[Lanefan]

I'll say it again: if people think that the game should encourage some race/class combinations, and discourage others, just say so.

Fair challenge. Accepted.

I do think that having some race-class combinations be encouraged and others not is a good thing for the game...with one proviso: Humans should be good at everything.

Why is it good? It supports well-known archetypes (spindly Elf Wizard, tricky Gnome Illusionist, tough solid Dwarf warrior, etc.) while still allowing those who want to fight the system a bit in order to play against type to do so.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

If you look at D&D as a meat-grinder OSR-style game where success is achieved on the backs of the fallen (which IMO is what it should have been all along, and how it plays best) things become much clearer.

MÖRK BORG is a meat-grinder OSR. There is a clear expectation that player characters are expendable, to the point that there's an automatic character generator for the game ready to go, since players are expected to be using it a lot: SCVMBIRTHER.

D&D 5e is not a meat-grinder. That expectation for expendable PCs isn't there. Instead, the game pushes a zero-to-hero theme with PCs expected to (fairly) quickly level up in power, eventually reaching mythic levels. Usually through wanton violence.

Since Level Up is meant to be compatible with D&D 5e, I don't think it should go the meat-grinder route. I'm not saying that Level Up should go full story-game; as much as I like that scene and think that there are some very important and overdue lessons that D&D should learn from that genre, D&D 5e as it stands right now isn't that (it's closer to what some designers call "trad games", as opposed to OSR and storygames). If Level Up wants to remain compatible with D&D 5e, it should probably hew close to it in tone.

Except for, you know, the parts of 5e that really should be fixed, and which Level Up is in the perfect position to do so, but that's a topic for a whole 'nother set of threads, which will become more timely as Morrus expounds more on the design ethos and plans for the game.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

People in the world don't have perfect access to all information. The high elves don't sit in their gilded towers reading PC creation guidelines. They can only know what they see.

They don't have to read the book, because they can observe the reality of their world everywhere around them, of which the rules in the book are a pale reflection. The reality of their world is that an elf wizard (with 2.5 hp per level) is not going to do as well as a dwarf wizard (with nearly twice as many hit points). That isn't a small thing that can be easily overlooked.

In the US, for example, there is a common stereotype of French people as snooty, or as so-called "cheese-eating surrender monkeys". This view is largely counterfactual and ignores hundreds of years of french military history and the existence of the Free France movement even during WW2. And yet the belief that this is true persists.

I don't know that it is widespread, especially in regards to the sort of rational actors who play D&D - the ones who don't want to play a wizard without their +2 bonus to Int. The joke only exists because it's funny (to some people), and because the French are an acceptable target. If the next D&D survey had a question about whether French people are actually bad at fighting, I doubt that a majority of participants would seriously claim it to be true.

 

[Phoebasss]

They don't have to read the book, because they can observe the reality of their world everywhere around them, of which the rules in the book are a pale reflection. The reality of their world is that an elf wizard (with 2.5 hp per level) is not going to do as well as a dwarf wizard (with nearly twice as many hit points). That isn't a small thing that can be easily overlooked.

I don't know that it is widespread, especially in regards to the sort of rational actors who play D&D - the ones who don't want to play a wizard without their +2 bonus to Int. The joke only exists because it's funny (to some people), and because the French are an acceptable target. If the next D&D survey had a question about whether French people are actually bad at fighting, I doubt that a majority of participants would seriously claim it to be true.

This is dumb. You really are arguing that people have a perfect understanding of all the cultures in their world. That's just, pardon me, but that's nonsense. No one could ever observe the real world and believe that anyone, let alone everyone, really understands all other cultures and what their people are usually good at.

Be careful, this is when people start to drown in the Saelorn quicksand.

You were right.

 

[Guest 6801328]

MÖRK BORG is a meat-grinder OSR. There is a clear expectation that player characters are expendable, to the point that there's an automatic character generator for the game ready to go, since players are expected to be using it a lot: SCVMBIRTHER.

D&D 5e is not a meat-grinder. That expectation for expendable PCs isn't there. Instead, the game pushes a zero-to-hero theme with PCs expected to (fairly) quickly level up in power, eventually reaching mythic levels. Usually through wanton violence.

Since Level Up is meant to be compatible with D&D 5e, I don't think it should go the meat-grinder route. I'm not saying that Level Up should go full story-game; as much as I like that scene and think that there are some very important and overdue lessons that D&D should learn from that genre, D&D 5e as it stands right now isn't that (it's closer to what some designers call "trad games", as opposed to OSR and storygames). If Level Up wants to remain compatible with D&D 5e, it should probably hew close to it in tone.

Except for, you know, the parts of 5e that really should be fixed, and which Level Up is in the perfect position to do so, but that's a topic for a whole 'nother set of threads, which will become more timely as Morrus expounds more on the design ethos and plans for the game.

Human Occupied Landfill.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

No one could ever observe the real world and believe that anyone, let alone everyone, really understands all other cultures and what their people are usually good at.

That's because the relative capabilities of different cultures in the real world are fairly minor, and not necessarily worth modeling under d20 granularity.

If the objective reality of our real world was that the people from one region were genetically twice as capable as people from another region, then that's not something that we could just ignore. It's a fantastic premise, sure, but this is a fantasy setting where it happens to be true.

 

[Phoebasss]

That's because the relative capabilities of different cultures in the real world are fairly minor, and not necessarily worth modeling under d20 granularity.

If the objective reality of our real world was that the people from one region were genetically twice as capable as people from another region, then that's not something that we could just ignore. It's a fantastic premise, sure, but this is a fantasy setting where it happens to be true.

I don't understand why you assume that elves understand orcs just by virtue of them existing in the same world. That premise stretches my belief far more than the idea that there are orc wizards on par with elven wizards. People don't observe reality and come away with truth. They see pieces of the world and come away with explanations. I provided at least 3 reasons high elves could believe that orcs are bad wizards besides racial ASIs. (Not to mention we have no reason to believe the elves are capable of observing racial ASIs in any meaningful way.) Just, think about it for a second. Also, the furthest average difference available in 5e is 5%. Humans vary in capability by substantially more than 5%.

 

[Stalker0]

It seems silly to restrict PCs to the racial stereotype, especially if it makes playing an orc wizard or halfling barbarian a bad idea. It's more fun to play characters succeeding against the stereotypes of their race. I'm not interested in another high elf wizard or orc fighter. We've all seen hundreds of them. Sure, races have an average, but 5e is pretty explicitly heroic. The usual constraints of your race don't apply to heroes. And they shouldn't. Because its not fun.

This is extremely well said, and honestly may have just changed my viewpoint. I have longed thought that “elves should get dex and “dwarves should get con” because “that reflects the races”.

but it’s true that the whole point of a pc is to be the exception to the rule, and so why would they need to follow racial ability rules as well.

I think as long as some floating points allowed for a pc to be the racial paragon (aka I am playing an elf with max dex because I am the elviest elf that ever elfed), than I could be fine with removing racial bonuses for PCs specifically

 

[Lanefan]

Why would a GM wish to decide such a thing in advance? What are the benefits? Seems to me they're boxing themselves into a corner for no reason.

Could be any of a host of reasons, the most obvious of which is that something as small as a typical Hobbit isn't likely to be as strong as a typical Human (the baseline) and that this needs to somehow be reflected in the mechanics up front to inform players' decisions on what they want to play as PCs..

 

[Lanefan]

That may have been the case in 1E and 2E, maybe even as far as 3e. But 4E and more importantly 5E have never played that way intentionally. 5E is built at a fundamentally heroic level,

Yes. What I'm saying is that this is not necessarily a positive development.

and the rules for death are the easiest way to see this. It is hard to get your character killed in 5e unless the GM is out to get you.

Agreed. Compared to 0e-1e and even 2e, 5e goes very easy on its characters; IMO far too much so.