D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[Seramus]

A Lizardfolk Monk X /Cleric of War 1 can chose from the following AC formulas: any Armor + Shield, (AC 13) Scales and Shield, Monk Unarmored Defense.

Monks lose many of their class benefits when they wear armor or use a shield. You also multiclassed, which says nothing for the Monk.

 

[Mistwell]

I'll just say that on a small party (fewer than 4 PCs), I'd probably rather have a monk than, say, a rogue.

On a more serious note, if you are in a party of 4 or fewer PCs, the skills provided by a rogue may be more critical to the party than the fighting prowess of the monk. A traditional party of a Wizard, Cleric, and Fighter could use a Rogue more than a Monk I think. Cleric and Fighter can take front line, while rogue and wizard back line. Rogue can cover just about all the skills-focused needs of the party. Monk might be more effective for combat, but leaving the party short on skills will likely have worse long term consequences for adventuring.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

so I checked this statement with various “character by wealth” posts over the years...and it looks like your absolutely right. I guess in my games (both run and played in) we get a lot of treasure so I am used to see plate at 2nd level...but By the book that is not a reasonable assumption.

I don't think you are the only person that has not paid attention to the new position of full plate armor.

In 5e, getting a suit of full plate is on the same order of magnitude as getting some Plate +1 in past editions. Getting actual Plate +1 in 5e is more akin to getting Plate +2 or maybe even +3 in older editions.

We have been playing 5e since it was released (and even the playtests before that) and I think that +1 or better armors have only been given out 2 or 3 times. We see many more armors with special abilities than we do +1 or better.

 

[Mistwell]

A Lizardfolk Monk X /Cleric of War 1 can chose from the following AC formulas: any Armor + Shield, (AC 13) Scales and Shield, Monk Unarmored Defense.

Natural armor doesn't stack with the Monk's AC modifiers and would be useless. You gain no flexibility from it. There are no normal circumstances where the natural armor would kick in.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There seems to be a common thread in the posts quoted above. There is an illustration of a hat, or a snake that has eaten an elephant, in the book, The Little Prince.
How you interpret the illustration depends on what you will allow yourself to see.

I'm having trouble interpreting the allegory in the context of what you quoted.

A Lizardfolk Monk X /Cleric of War 1 can chose from the following AC formulas: any Armor + Shield, (AC 13) Scales and Shield, Monk Unarmored Defense.

This flexibility means that regardless of the circumstances, the martial artist has a means to overcome his foe. How common is this build?

I'd say the flexibility is an Illusion: The monk has not gained anything useful, and their general effectiveness has gone down. Their means of overcoming the foe are still going to be the standard monk capabilities, just with some 1st level cleric spells as well as very occasional bonus action attacks. The armour and weapon proficiencies are not helpful since most of the monk's abilities won't work with them.

The only possible gain I can see would be being able to dump Wis while still having decent AC, but Stunning Fist relies on Wis. Lizardman bite attack is better than a low-level monk, but so are shortswords.

What am I missing?

 

[Undrave]

A Lizardfolk Monk X /Cleric of War 1 can chose from the following AC formulas: any Armor + Shield, (AC 13) Scales and Shield, Monk Unarmored Defense.

This flexibility means that regardless of the circumstances, the martial artist has a means to overcome his foe. How common is this build?

This flexibility as you call it is pretty awful. All your Martial Arts bonuses DISAPPEAR the moment you strap on that shield or put on your armor. At that point you're not really a Monk.

The fact that this happen is, honestly, ridiculous.

And if you need to Multiclass to gain any flexibility, as you call it, then the Monk, is not flexible.

 

[NotAYakk]

I did my own DPS analysis here: 5E - Monk vs Warlock: Checking the Baseline

I’ve also read several other analyses as well. From what I can see, the Monk does plenty of DPS, both with and without flurry of blows. It all comes down to the types of enemies the DM uses, and the frequency of short rests. That as close to a balance we can expect.

Monk baseline, resource-free damage, is worse than an EB+AB warlock who uses an 8 hour buff spell (where they can recharge in an hour) at level
5+. 2d10+8+2d6 (26) > 2d8+1d6+12(24.5)

The monk gets an additional 7.5/level/rest damage that has to hit (37.5 at 5) which stacks with baseline, while the warlock gets 2x8d6 aoe (28x2 fireball, or equivalent 3rd level spell) which does not.

The 3 free invocations and cha-SAD and range and ability to sacrifice damage (slots) for utility spells of the warlock beat monk utility two ways from sunday.

The dodge power only really gets the monk back to the baseline, at the cost of very precious KI resources.

It costs the equivalent of 15 can-misss damage at level 5 for 1 round. And as many DMs play dodge as visible, it just redirects damage to your allies.

It costs both the ki and your bonus action attack.

Control (Partially Agree)

If you compare Hypnotic Pattern to stun-spam on multiple enemies, pattern comes out ahead.

Basically unless you are fighting a legendary resistance critter does stun-spam start looking great in the 1-10 range. And gere you are just throwing your damage into the hope of soaking a 1 or 2 legendary resists. The foe has to be legendary, not have an auto-win con save, but not be so tough that the party is going to only fight it today (otherwise, daily casters have more slots and higher DCs).

Further, players also really like the ability to do full damage AND apply control effects, it works with the battlemaster and it works with the monk.

Sure.

But let us take the weakest of BM - a twf BM. At 6 she does 3d8+12 to the monk's 2d8+1d6+12 at-will.

The BM has 4d8 maneurver dice, the monk 6 ki. The BM can turn thise dice into a 2d8+4 riposte, a miss into a 1d8+4 hit, a crit into a +2d8 damage and save, or just a 1d8 damage and save.

Save DCs are higher in the BM (based off primary attack stat). BM AC is higher at 1-10 (either heavy armor, or medium+dex, or even light).

BM baseline action surge and second wind is big (2d8+8 swing damage, 2/3 of a level 6s ki damage). BM dice are damage and status effects, and she has 4 of them.

And BM has xbe/ss and pam/gwm builds that are considered much stronger than the TWF build.

Monk subclasses are addicted to burning Ki, so they provide breadth not depth. Open hand is an exception, but even there you have to ki-flurry to impose easy to defeat saving throw conditions.

 

[Seramus]

I'm having trouble interpreting the allegory in the context of what you quoted.

I think he's saying Prestidigitation makes poop taste delicious.

 

[Todd Roybark]

At that point you're not really a Monk.

The point of being a monk is having the tools to defeat your foe. A Mountain dwarf doesn't need to multiclass. A monk in armor can still Flurry and Stunning Fist. Can still evade and use subclass power. A Lizardfold just happens to have a race based 1d6 Natural Attack that works with Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows.

The monk like any class is a chassis, not something that must be played one way. An armored monk can easily model the role play role of a fearsome warrior Knight ....a battlefield terror armored or not...unlike a fighter.

If your game does not feature needing to change arms and armor, if a GWM Fighter can always expect to waltz up to monsters and whack them with their glaive...then versatility is just not an Important attribute, then. Games differ.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Natural armor doesn't stack with the Monk's AC modifiers and would be useless. You gain no flexibility from it. There are no normal circumstances where the natural armor would kick in.

Sure there is, a Lizardfolk Monk that is proficient in shields can just keep a shield on their back, (not wearing Heavy armor).
If Scales and Shield would yield a better AC, the Monk equips the shield. If the monk needs to hit nitrous..the monk drops the shield.

If Plate Armor..say for a battlefield sequence would be a better option...it is an available option as well.
If Magic Loot is found that changes the balance of the numbers, you adapt your style to make use of what is available.

The part in italics is a brief summation of Musashi's fighting philosophy....Mr. Kensai himself.