D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[Mistwell]

I don’t think that’s a fair way of looking at either of those things.

Why? The inability to choose intelligence or charisma as your second best stat because you're locked into wisdom is a liability for the monk the rogue doesn't have. And the number of skills you get, the range of those you can choose, the core abilities that benefit skills like expertise and reliable talent, the rogue simply outclasses the monk for skills. I've literally never once heard anyone argue otherwise.

Nor is "a subclass can cast the pass without trace spell with 2 ki pointsl" a substitute for all those skill benefits the rogue gets, much like nobody calls druids and rangers and trickery clerics and bards and such "skill monkey" because they can get that spell too.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Or do you mean with that ONE build with the Lizardfolk race? Then congrats! You found a second build of monk

So, how many more "builds" are hiding in plain sight? You only see hats, others see elephants swallowed by snakes.

Builds are for editions that have trap options. 5e has few of those.see the Lizardperson monk for example...(it is playable)...use the options to make characters instead.

 

[Todd Roybark]

With fewer skills, a shorter list of skills to choose, no expertise, no other major skill boosting abilities, and multi stat dependency, monk will not keep up with the rogue for skills.

I agree with this 100%. No 2 skill point class is keeping up with a Rogue or any class with Expertise.
The atavistic response to argue that 5e monks are good with skills, needs to be suppressed.
Now having good Stats in Wisdom and Dex, does mean that one can be conventionally good with a good list of skills.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why? The inability to choose intelligence or charisma as your second best stat because you're locked into wisdom is a liability for the monk the rogue doesn't have. And the number of skills you get, the range of those you can choose, the core abilities that benefit skills like expertise and reliable talent, the rogue simply outclasses the monk for skills. I've literally never once heard anyone argue otherwise.

I've marked through everything that doesn't relate to dex and wis focus for the monk. That point was standalone and simply stated that being locked into 2 stats that are good for skills is just as good as having flexibility to build dex and wis/int/cha. Let's explore why.

Case 1. Assume the player is not trying to optimize skills to fit into a party. Then the rogue is just as likely as the monk to have skills that the party already has built for.

Case 2. Assume the player is trying to optimize skills to fit into the party. Then the monk is simply not chosen unless the party needs dex/wis skills.

Thus, in every event where the monk is chosen - the skill bonus from his stats will be just as beneficial as the rogues skill bonus from his stats.

]Nor is "a subclass can cast the pass without trace spell with 2 ki pointsl" a substitute for all those skill benefits the rogue gets, much like nobody calls druids and rangers and trickery clerics and bards and such "skill monkey" because they can get that spell too.

From level 1-4 a rogue has a +2 bonus in 2 skills and proficiency in 1 additional skill. At level 6 the rogue has +3 bonus to 4 skills and proficiency in 1 additional skill.
The shadow monk from level 3+ gives himself and the party a +10 bonus to 1 skill.

Reliable talent is great but it's not achieved until after the level 1-10 range we are looking at.

So essentially we are looking at +2-3 to 2-4 skills vs +10 in 1 skill for the whole party. I think a good argument can be made that the +10 to a single skill for the whole party is actually better for the level 1-10 range than what the rogue gets. It's not clearly in either builds favor - but it's at least in the realm of being debatable which is better.

I agree the monk is not a "skill monkey". You don't need to be a skill monkey to add alot of value at skills.

 

[FrogReaver]

I agree with this 100%. No 2 skill point class is keeping up with a Rogue or any class with Expertise.
The atavistic response to argue that 5e monks are good with skills, needs to be suppressed.
Now having good Stats in Wisdom and Dex, does mean that one can be conventionally good with a good list of skills.

Level 3+ being able to cast pass without trace for party stealth boost of +10 each.... It's at least comparable in power to all the rogue skill bonuses and expertise. (for levels 1-10 which is what this thread is evaluating).

 

[Flamestrike]

There's no room for a Jujitsu grappling Monk

Open Hand (Variant Human) Monk 5 - Feats Tavern Brawler, Prodigy (Grappler at 8th, or increase Dex, then the final 3 ASI's are Dex and Wisdom increases)

S 12 (+1 Tavern Brawler, +1 Vuman) 14
D 15 (+1 Vuman) 16
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 8
AC 15, 38 HP

Athletics +8, Acrobatics +6, others.

• Whenever he hits a creature with an unarmed strike on his turn, he can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target (+8). He can also Stun the target with Stunning fist as part of the same punch.
• Once grappled, he can use his Open Hand Technique on the following round to knock it prone simply by hitting it with a Flurry attack (if it's Stunned it automatically fails its Dex save to resist)

It's now Grappled and Prone until it wastes an action (and beats the Monks +8 Athletics) to break free. While Grappled and Prone, it cant stand up, and the Monk (and everyone else) has advantage to hit it, and it has disadvantage to hit everyone else.

He can drag his victim around (at half speed, 20' seeing as he moves 40' base) and hurl it off cliffs and such using his OH technique to toss it 15' by hitting it with a Flurry attack (if stunned it automatically fails the Save and is hurled 15' backwards)

Seems viable to me.

It's much more optimal to go a Toitle (you can dump Dex to the wazoo and retain your AC, and rely wholly on Strength, you miss out on Prodigy but with a high Strength (18 by 4th level when you take Tavern Brawler) you wont need it.

 

[Undrave]

Common tropes of D&D where PCs typically are unarmed and unarmored.

1. Barfight
2. Attacked while sleeping
3. In the nobles court
4. Captured and jailed
5. Bushwhacked by an enemy waiting for you to let your guard down
6. Equipment destroying traps and monsters.
7. Bushwhacking an enemy by appearing to have let your guard down
8. Impersonating someone who is unarmed and unarmored

1. Unless the tavern has a weapons locker, the real reason you're not using your favoured weapon here is so you don't kill anyone. a Fighter could probably improvise a club out of a table leg and still be able to do better than the natural 1 dmg of bare fists.

2. Yes that happens at least once in a while. If it happens repeatedly, your DM just wants you to die because nobody's getting their long rest on.

3. Unarmed I can see, but there are ceremonial armors so why not? And if naughty word hits the fan it's probably possible to get some kind of weapon in that kind of environment, like from a guard.

4. That happens yeah. Not all the time, but it's nice to have a monk... or a caster that doesn't need components to cast... Or a druid.

5. That's the same damn thing as 2.

6. Augh. Not a fan of that.

7. and 8. are basically the same thing, and if your Fighter isn't at their peak, or at least doesn't have a good weapon handy, then your plan was lame from the start.

So, how many more "builds" are hiding in plain sight? You only see hats, others see elephants swallowed by snakes.

Builds are for editions that have trap options. 5e has few of those.see the Lizardperson monk for example...(it is playable)...use the options to make characters instead.

To be fair, the Lizardfolk aren't in the PHB, so they aren't on my radar most of the time. And how does Bite interact with Martial Arts? Would you still be able to use DEX for it? If it does and you grab a shield... you need to use STR now because your Martial Arts benefit go out the window. Do you have good STR?

Aside from races with natural AC or natural weapon, all the races end up playing Monk very similarly. Especially if you only have the PHB.

Level 3+ being able to cast pass without trace for party stealth boost of +10 each.... It's at least comparable in power to all the rogue skill bonuses and expertise. (for levels 1-10 which is what this thread is evaluating).

It's good, there's no denying it... but it's ONE skill, so it's not exactly a 'skill monkey', it's just a good specialist. And it is fuelled by your combat resource, meaning that if you use that stealth and get into a fight, you're 2 Ki points down...

Open Hand (Variant Human) Monk 5 - Feats Tavern Brawler, Prodigy (Grappler at 8th, or increase Dex, then the final 3 ASI's are Dex and Wisdom increases)

S 12 (+1 Tavern Brawler, +1 Vuman) 14
D 15 (+1 Vuman) 16
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 8
AC 15, 38 HP

Athletics +8, Acrobatics +6, others.

• Whenever he hits a creature with an unarmed strike on his turn, he can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target (+8). He can also Stun the target with Stunning fist as part of the same punch.
• Once grappled, he can use his Open Hand Technique on the following round to knock it prone simply by hitting it with a Flurry attack (if it's Stunned it automatically fails its Dex save to resist)

It's now Grappled and Prone until it wastes an action (and beats the Monks +8 Athletics) to break free. While Grappled and Prone, it cant stand up, and the Monk (and everyone else) has advantage to hit it, and it has disadvantage to hit everyone else.

He can drag his victim around (at half speed, 20' seeing as he moves 40' base) and hurl it off cliffs and such using his OH technique to toss it 15' by hitting it with a Flurry attack (if stunned it automatically fails the Save and is hurled 15' backwards)

Seems viable to me.

It's much more optimal to go a Toitle (you can dump Dex to the wazoo and retain your AC, and rely wholly on Strength, you miss out on Prodigy but with a high Strength (18 by 4th level when you take Tavern Brawler) you wont need it.

Neat!

AC 15 at level 5 is generally considered low... And your Stun DC is 13, so that's gonna be rare that your grappled target will be also stunned...Especially as the target that would be good to grapple (I know grappling them doesn't take up any of your ressources when you do it, but it does mean you can't take advantage of your full monk speed anymore, and you had to make some trade off at char gen) would usually be ones with tons of HP that could be whittled down by focus fire at advantage... thus high CON characters... or maybe they're hard to touch in the first place, meaning you might have trouble grabbing them in the first place because your DEX is only +3... How well would the Tortle version work at level 1 and 2 without feat support?

It looks fun, but not as smooth as it first appears... I'm not sure how it would compare in terms of efficiency to a monk that just beats people up instead. But it certainly shows that Open Hand is the best Monk Subclass if you can pull off this kind of shenanigans.

Still wish there was a proper grappler subclass with its own special locks... but since DnD is filled with enemies that are too big for a medium creature to grapple, they probably think it would be too limited :/

 

[Undrave]

We talked about the psychology thing and I want to mention: using your ki to dodge doesn't feel good.

• It's not flashy.
• It doesn't feel like its progressing the game state because no damage is traded.
• You don't roll anything.
• You don't know if you'll be attacked, nor you don't know what the DM will roll. If the DM rolls a fumble you feel like you wasted your Ki. If the DM decides to attack an easier target, you don't see that as an advantage.

So, to me, no matter how good it technically is, it doesn't feel good, nor like an actually cool thing.

I don't think it'd be broken if it didn't cost Ki, to be honest. You could dodge all day and be down in dmg and bonus action and it wouldn't break anything. Just make it part of Martial Arts: When you attack with a monk weapon or unarmed, you can either attack again as a bonus action, or take the dodge action.

 

[FrogReaver]

We talked about the psychology thing and I want to mention: using your ki to dodge doesn't feel good.

• It's not flashy.
• It doesn't feel like its progressing the game state because no damage is traded.
• You don't roll anything.
• You don't know if you'll be attacked, nor you don't know what the DM will roll. If the DM rolls a fumble you feel like you wasted your Ki. If the DM decides to attack an easier target, you don't see that as an advantage.

So, to me, no matter how good it technically is, it doesn't feel good, nor like an actually cool thing.

I don't think it'd be broken if it didn't cost Ki, to be honest. You could dodge all day and be down in dmg and bonus action and it wouldn't break anything. Just make it part of Martial Arts: When you attack with a monk weapon or unarmed, you can either attack again as a bonus action, or take the dodge action.

I guess this is one of those moments where everyone is different. I love using bonus action dodge on my monk. Then again I use the standard action dodge on my PCs far more than most. So it may be a psychological thing but it’s no where near universal IMO.

 

[Undrave]

I guess this is one of those moments where everyone is different. I love using bonus action dodge on my monk. Then again I use the standard action dodge on my PCs far more than most. So it may be a psychological thing but it’s no where near universal IMO.

Tactically, you're better off attacking whenever possible. There's only very few situations where I would see myself using the Dodge action to begin with. Mostly if I don't have anything better to do with my action.

And maybe it is psychological... I used to play card games and if you spend a turn without having your opponent expend any ressources you're in trouble. It gives them one more turn to gather ressources (drawing, searching etc), one more turn to activate effects and one more turn to mount an offensive on you. If you're just standing there like a turtle the opponent is free to do whatever the heck they want.

Also, 5e combat is already pretty short so there's a good chance my allies would just finish the fight and I'll look like I left them out to dry instead of contributing.