D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[Todd Roybark]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim the druid or ranger or bard or cleric that has Pass Without Trace (which they can cast more times per day on average than a Shadow Monk) thinks that spell is worth 25% of their damage output! It's a fine spell but it's not that good! If it were that good, people would be much happier with the Ranger than they are for instance

Given you only get three 2nd level spell slots, depending on the level of the PC, it can be a substantial amount of damage potential expended for a cleric, druid, or ranger, when PWoT is used.
On a cleric of Trickery, each PWoT cast is one less potential Spiritual Weapon.

Assuming 2 Short Rests, a 3rd level Shadow Monk has access to 9 Ki points in a day.
That is potentially 4 uses of the Shadow Monk's assortment of 2nd level spells.
Does one need more then one casting of PWoT in day, however?

I wonder, if instead of spell slots, a Paladin was given the spell point variant from the DMG, would people feel like the Paladin was reducing their damage potential by casting spells instead using Divine Smite.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, if you make house rules to benefit the monk, the monk can keep up with other classes. That's the same as saying that in the game as published, the monk is an inferior class.

First, my forbearance in not calling you out on your lack of rigor in accounting for actual magic item availability in the example you authored wasn't actually an invitation for you to invent lies about what I'm thinking.

Second, a +3 shield isn't a legendary item, it's a very rare item, which means you were comparing a monk with a legendary (defender), two rare (bracers and ring), and one uncommon (cloak) to a fighter with one legendary and one very rare.

Third, by the time you've dropped, say, the ring to actually get under the attunement limit, the monk's dropped two AC behind the fighter. So, in your chosen comparison, we can drop the fighter to +2 items. Thus the monk needs three items (1 legendary/1 rare/1 uncommon) to match a fighter with two items (1 very rare/1 rare). Give the fighter a cloak (1 uncommon) and move the fighter's armor back up to legendary for an exact commonality match with the defender, and have the fighter be ahead by 2 on AC, plus having two attunement "slots" open to the monk's zero.

In any case, the point again is that the monk lags. The debate clearly isn't whether or not the monk sucks, it's whether the monk's sucking should be fixed by revising the class, adding feats, changing magic items, or something else.

This is the story of Flametongue.

The first group of adventurers gave the flame tongue to their fighter. They concluded that all other classes sucked at damage other than fighters
The second group of adventurers gave the flame tongue to their Barbarian. They concluded that all other classes sucked at damage other than barbarians.
The third group of adventurers gave the flame tongue to their Paladin. They concluded that all other classes sucked at damage other than Paladins.
The final group of adventurers found flame tongues for everyone but the monk. They concluded the monk sucked at damage.

The Flametongue story reveals 2 things:
1. Monks suck at damage
2. Monks suck at damage because they didn't get access to a powerful magical item

I think 2 is the more accurate and less misleading point. The class doesn't need reworked, magic items need reworked. Of course all that is dependent on a fairly high magic item game. There's no guarantee that's the case especially for levels 1-10.

 

[FrogReaver]

Given you only get three 2nd level, depending on the level of the PC, it can be a substantial amount of damage potential expended for a cleric, druid, or ranger, when PWoT is used.
On a cleric of Trickery, each PWoT cast is one less potential Spiritual Weapon.

Yep. I'd still say pass without trace is well worth the cast for any of those. But you are right the pass without trace on the monk isn't competing with a combat resource that nearly as strong as something like spiritual weapon or hold person or shatter.

Assuming 2 Short Rests, a 3rd level Shadow Monk has access to 9 Ki points in a day.
That is potentially 4 uses of the Shadow Monk's assortment of 2nd level spells.
Does one need more then one casting of PWoT in day, however?

I would anticipate it would be used once per rest. So 2-3 times per day.

I wonder, if instead of spell slots, a Paladin was given the spell point variant from the DMG, would people feel like the Paladin was reducing their damage potential by casting spells instead using Divine Smite.

The important part of the paladin damage that the monk doesn't get is Nova damage potential. A Vengeance Paladin can get Nova Expected Damage of 42 at level 5 (GWF). A monk that lands stunning strike and uses flurry of blows isn't that far behind once party damage from advantage is added in. He will do around 23 Nova Expected Damage himself while also adding about +10 to 12 for allies that focus on the enemy he stunned.

As shown above, the actual numbers are much much closer than most people realize.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I would personally like to divorce Stunning Strike from the Ki requirement. This would give the monk more 'virtual' Ki, and lets the monk have fun with their Ki abilities without cannibalizing their possible stuns.

Stunning Strike can be done 4 times per short rest. No ki involved.

I love that, as it both makes the Monk generally more able to use all their cool abilities while also reigning in the problematic ability that unbalances encounters.

 

[FrogReaver]

Perhaps it's best to take a step back and ask, how do we prove monks don't suck. What more do you need to see to conclude monks don't suck?

We can show Ac is within 1 point.
We can show at will damage is comparable to other classes that are highly regarded as good at damage.
We can show Nova damage contribution is solid (assuming you stun and your party focus fires)
We can show subclass options either increases AC and DPR, or increase party DPR via knockdown, or greatly increase party stealth via pass without trace.

What the monk misses is a high hp pool. The monk is typically one of the lowest d8 hp classes due to limited ability to increase con. I suppose I would fix monks in that arena by increasing their hit die to d10. (minor tweak).

 

[Ancalagon]

In Tomb of Annhiliation my Kensai stunned Nanny PuPu every round they were still alive so that they never actually got an action in combat.

I have had similar experiences as a GM.
Round 1: Boss does something tactical. PCs are dealing with minions
Round 2: PCs are dealing with minions, delayed by the boss's previous action. Boss about to do something NOPE the monk is there! Stunned boss has no action and takes a bit of damage.
Round 3: PCs are moping up minions. Monk NOPES the boss again. Boss does nothing, takes a bit more of damage.
Round 4: Cleric and NPCs dealing with few minions left. Warlocks EBs the Boss, significant damage. The paladin finally reaches the Boss and smites for big damage. Monk NOPES again and does a bit more damage.
At this point the boss either dies, or dies in Round 5.

 

[Ancalagon]

I mean, we can definitely agree on some things here

1: 4 element monk is probably the worse subclass in the game (it's in the same groups as beastmaster and bezerker). It could (and should) be fixed, that is another discussion.

2: Monks are a bit "fixed" - not a lot of build option, and roleplay is a bit narrow - although hey, I had a pirate monk player.

3: Monks are fiddly. They require a lot of judgement and a bit of luck to work well. They are not tanks.

4: Monks DPR is not as high as DPR-optimized build.

I don't think any of these points are disputable yes?

The points of disputes are:

A: The monk does decent DPR, comparable to decent DPR dealers.

B: What the monk gains in control abilities, mobility and other powers is fair and useful compensation for not being a top DPR dealer or top tank.

From my personal experience, from running a campaign with one, then two (!!) monks from level 3-8, the answer to A and B is yes! (The campaign also had a paladin, a cleric of light and a warlock)

 

[FrogReaver]

I mean, we can definitely agree on some things here

1: 4 element monk is probably the worse subclass in the game (it's in the same groups as beastmaster and bezerker). It could (and should) be fixed, that is another discussion.

2: Monks are a bit "fixed" - not a lot of build option, and roleplay is a bit narrow - although hey, I had a pirate monk player.

Monks are very fixed and narrow in options. I think fixed and narrow classes are fine though.

3: Monks are fiddly. They require a lot of judgement and a bit of luck to work well. They are not tanks.

Agreed. Monks need short rests and well timed ki abilities to work well. Monks sacrifice too much damage to be a dedicated tank. They can do it well for a few rounds as needed though.

4: Monks DPR is not as high as DPR-optimized build.

Depends on if you count the DPR increase caused by allies getting advantage caused by the monk in the monks damage column. If so they are pretty impressive. I don't know that they compete with a VHuman CE SS + Precision Battlemaster Fighter in damage though. So I think ultimately I have to agree with you. Then again not really anything does that kind of DPR... hmmmm

I don't think any of these points are disputable yes?

Not majorly

The points of disputes are:

A: The monk does decent DPR, comparable to decent DPR dealers.

I don't think this can be disagreed with.

B: What the monk gains in control abilities, mobility and other powers is fair and useful compensation for not being a top DPR dealer or top tank.

From my personal experience, from running a campaign with one, then two (!!) monks from level 3-8, the answer to A and B is yes! (The campaign also had a paladin, a cleric of light and a warlock)

I find B to be most in dispute. I happen to agree it's fair compensation or at least close to it. I also find levels 1-4 to be rough for most monk players as the monks faults low level faults have too great an effect at those levels. 2 KI at level 2 feels bad (albeit still fairly balanced). 8 ki by level 8 feels great! The lower hp is more glaring at low levels. Monks feel fairly frail at levels 1-3.

I don't imagine monk players in that level 6-10 range feel like ki is too rare unless they are not getting short rests.

 

[Ancalagon]

I wonder... I wonder if a lot of the "monk sucks!" experiences come from playing low levels and then abandoning the PC or the campaign fizzles out? Because... I think I have to agree, they are a bit underwhelming at low levels.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I wonder... I wonder if a lot of the "monk sucks!" experiences come from playing low levels and then abandoning the PC or the campaign fizzles out? Because... I think I have to agree, they are a bit underwhelming at low levels.

The thing is though they're fine at low levels and solid through Lv. 10. It's at 11+ that they start to fall off.