D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bedrockgames]

I'm not intending to dismiss your concerns I'm introducing the fields to point out that rather than worrying over a problem there are fields that explore potential implementable solutions that approach these problems from different angles and worked (or not worked) in the past. Claiming a problem is self-evident while calling for inaction seems like a weak position to stake out as things change around us. We can't exactly shove things back into Pandora's Box.

I am not an academic. I am giving my opinion about corporate power, and frankly these fields haven't done much to stem the increasing influence of corporations in our system of government. Why should I trust their assessment or guidance on this front?

 

[BookTenTiger]

I am not an academic. I am giving my opinion about corporate power, and frankly these fields haven't done much to stem the increasing influence of corporations in our system of government. Why should I trust their assessment or guidance on this front?

There is no reason to trust them, but that also doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held to a standard of fighting racism and white supremacy.

Restaurants that had to desegregate in the American South were still run by racists. But they still had to take actions that desegregated their communities.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Claiming a problem is self-evident while calling for inaction seems like a weak position to stake out as things change around us.

I think we are all familiar with how companies are wielding their power on social media, and to me at least, because I have seen it first hand, it seems to be resulting in a lot of cases of people being fired or placed in a position where they will have difficulty finding work. And I think a lot of this is due to the increased emphasis on companies 'sharing their customers values'.

 

[Wishbone]

I am not an academic. I am giving my opinion about corporate power, and frankly these fields haven't done much to stem the increasing influence of corporations in our system of government. Why should I trust their assessment or guidance on this front?

I'd argue that them being untrustworthy is what makes them worth reading. Their writing directly or indirectly informs various actors or is used to justify actions in the public sphere, which is part of the larger context to anticipate where these concerns may be leading to in the future.

To bring this back on topic to RPG gaming and discrimination, if someone expresses concerns from a perspective informed by a certain perspective I am unfamiliar with or disagree with I'd try to read up more on whatever sources informed their thinking to better understand why and how I disagree with them. Learning about Gary Gygax's self-definition as a biological determinist (from this very forum!) enriches my understanding of why racial traits have traditionally worked the way they do in D&D today even though I disagree with his views.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Restaurants that had to desegregate in the American South were still run by racists. But they still had to take actions that desegregated their communities.

This is different because the restaurants were where segregation was happening. But never forget that companies like Woolworths were also forces for enforcing segregation. My issue here is that you are trusting the profit motive will lead companies to make the moral choice, and I am saying you can't assume that will be the case. They could use their influence and power for the wrong moral choice. So why encourage them to take up social and cultural issues?

 

[BookTenTiger]

This is different because the restaurants were where segregation was happening. But never forget that companies like Woolworths were also forces for enforcing segregation. My issue here is that you are trusting the profit motive will lead companies to make the moral choice, and I am saying you can't assume that will be the case. They could use their influence and power for the wrong moral choice. So why encourage them to take up social and cultural issues?

I am in no way trusting profit motive! Segregated restaurants were doing just fine, financially.

I'm saying that the human beings who run WotC should act in a responsible and empathetic way towards other human beings. I know that's a pretty radical idea.

ALSO: We need to stop calling this a "moral issue." This is fighting racism and white supremacy.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There is no reason to trust them, but that also doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held to a standard of fighting racism and white supremacy.

No, because they can't be trusted and they have more power than individuals. A lot more power. Corporations and companies have the ability to really hurt people (and I mean in way like depriving folks of a livelihood or suing them into oblivion). You can try to hold them to a standard you believe they should follow but if we normalize that 1) everybody in the county will be exploiting that lever, and it is lever that rewards spending: you are giving power to the people who can afford to vote with their dollar and 2) perhaps today while the hobby is very niche and largely liberal, you will see your values reflected in their behavior but a) there is no guarantee that isn't used to hurt people who don't deserve it and or do the wrong thing----like censor content and b) there is even less guarantee they continue to reflect your values as time goes on.

I much prefer when powerful corporations don't involve themselves in morality, and don't take interest in the private lives of individuals.

 

[Bedrockgames]

ALSO: We need to stop calling this a "moral issue." This is fighting racism and white supremacy.

We disagree over whether this is about racism or white supremacy (I made my point earlier about that terminology). But even if I grant that is what this is about: you can't make this not about morality more broadly because that is the door you are opening. You just happen to care about racism and white supremacy. But as this becomes more normalized, other moral issues will absolutely become a part of this discussion. And that is where I begin to have much graver concerns. You live in a country that elected someone to high office, who you obviously holds values you vehemently oppose. The people who voted for that person, also buy things. If we make this about using our dollar to vote for the morality we want to see, can't you see where that can lead?

 

[Wishbone]

I much prefer when powerful corporations don't involve themselves in morality, and don't take interest in the private lives of individuals.

Which just seems like a recipe to leaving corporations open to being manipulated by people who aren't hamstrung by our own moral framework. I'd argue that the idea that corporations ever failed to take an interest in the private lives of individuals or involved themselves in morality is a useful and comforting fiction.

 

[Bedrockgames]

To bring this back on topic to RPG gaming and discrimination, if someone expresses concerns from a perspective informed by a certain perspective I am unfamiliar with or disagree with I'd try to read up more on whatever sources informed their thinking to better understand why and how I disagree with them. Learning about Gary Gygax's self-definition as a biological determinist (from this very forum!) enriches my understanding of why racial traits have traditionally worked the way they do in D&D today even though I disagree with his views.

I do too within reason. But if a whole field, or numerous fields of study are dropped on me, I am not going to spend months reading them just to weigh in on something I already have been able to inform through my years of being alive. I have lived through enough different phases of life to sense when I being sold something a bit rotten. This is why the whole 'you are with us or against us' just doesn't work on me. People exploit morality sometimes to get what they want, and it often leads us to immoral places. So I am quite reluctant to go with you in this direction.