D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bedrockgames]

Citation please. I’ve seen zero evidence of this. The most profitable and popular movies, books and music of the past several decades have zero Christian content.

You are really going to ask for a citation for what amounts to a side comment? Look, this is pretty obviously true. I don't have an academic citation (I can't imagine one exists for this). But I grew up in a very religious household, and can assure you, Christian content being in media, meant my parents and the people in our community bought stuff. That is why you have whole genres of Christian music for example. But again, side point, as I wasn't even advocating that D&D ought to do this.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Be specific. We are.

I am happy to have a conversation. I am not going to respond well though to someone demanding I post how they want me to post. This has come up again and again.

 

[Hussar]

I've already explained this when it has come up, and I think my reasons are sound. If you don't like it, you can ignore what I say. But I think I have offered fairly complete arguments for why I take the positions I have, and I don't think it is hard for people to conjure up the examples I am alluding to without me dragging other publishers into the discussion

No, you haven't. All you've done is make vague presentiments, bereft of any actual facts, stating your opinion. And, yet, you still want to be taken seriously. "Oh, I know all sorts of things, but, I can't tell you, you have to think of it yourself" is probably the weakest argument you could possibly make.

This has gone far beyond the disclaimer. I never objected to the disclaimer. I don't think it is the best solution, but I don't object to them putting up a disclaimer if they want to. There have been many other points being made, beyond people wanting a disclaimer, and that is what I have been responding to

What other points? SPECIFICALLY. Can you quote them? What, other than the disclaimer, have people said should be done? Again, vague statements without any actual evidence. Easy and cheap by the dozen.

You are really going to ask for a citation for what amounts to a side comment? Look, this is pretty obviously true. I don't have an academic citation (I can't imagine one exists for this). But I grew up in a very religious household, and can assure you, Christian content being in media, meant my parents and the people in our community bought stuff. That is why you have whole genres of Christian music for example. But again, side point, as I wasn't even advocating that D&D ought to do this.

So, you admit that your point had nothing to do with D&D. Why bring it up then if it isn't relevant? If you don't expect D&D producers to do this, then why are you talking about it?

I am happy to have a conversation. I am not going to respond well though to someone demanding I post how they want me to post. This has come up again and again.

Of course you're happy to have a conversation where you never actually have to back up any of your statements, never have to provide any proof or even evidence, and can make vague statements about "what I know". The plural of anecdote is not data. Just because you grew up that way doesn't mean anything. It comes up again and again, because, again and again, you insist on being taken seriously yet refuse to actually provide anything tangible to support your statements.

It's easy making vague, kinda truthful sounding statements. It's a lot harder when you actually have to back them up. And, if you refuse to back them up, why would anyone treat you seriously?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Hussar, you are mischaracterizing my posts, you are taking an extremely hostile tone with me, and you appear to be assuming bad faith. Like I said I will have a conversation. I won’t engage insults, reducing or sneering

What other points? See the posts I quoted and responded to. It is all clear

 

[Bedrockgames]

So, you admit that your point had nothing to do with D&D. Why bring it up then if it isn't relevant? If you don't expect D&D producers to do this, then why are you talking about it?

I am only responding to this for illustrative purposes: look at the post I was responding to with that statement, that should give you the context of why I said it. If it isn't clear, then I communicated poorly. Not sure what else to say about this.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's easy making vague, kinda truthful sounding statements. It's a lot harder when you actually have to back them up. And, if you refuse to back them up, why would anyone treat you seriously?

Again for illustrative purposes: then don't take me seriously. You are under no obligation to respond to my posts if you think they are a waste of time. I think you are reducing all of my posts to this one criticism, but fair enough, if you are not getting the response you want, disengage from me by all means. But you do seem to be taking me seriously for some reason. I suspect it is because you think something I am saying is persuasive and maybe that troubles you. Or not. I don't know. Like I said, you don't have to take me seriously if you truly find my arguments that ridiculous, and if you find my reasons for not posting in the manner you ask, absurd.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Again for illustrative purposes: then don't take me seriously. You are under no obligation to respond to my posts if you think they are a waste of time. I think you are reducing all of my posts to this one criticism, but fair enough, if you are not getting the response you want, disengage from me by all means. But you do seem to be taking me seriously for some reason. I suspect it is because you think something I am saying is persuasive and maybe that troubles you. Or not. I don't know. Like I said, you don't have to take me seriously if you truly find my arguments that ridiculous, and if you find my reasons for not posting in the manner you ask, absurd.

I'll jump back in: no it is NOT persuasive. Not even in the slightest.

The technique you are using isn't just vague, it's odious. What you're doing, essentially, is using a combination of uncertainty and parade-of-horribles fear-mongering to argue for doing nothing. You see this approach all the time, in any place where one group of people is comfy with the status quo and doesn't want to see anything change. "Oh, no, you can't start believing women...an innocent man might (GASP) lose his job!" "Oh, no, you can't start taxing carried interest as income...would would invest in yet-another-startup that delivers sushi to young San Francisco professionals?" "Oh, no, you can't change anything in D&D that might show cultural sensitivity...the next step after that is burning Shakespeare!"

And, sure, those protestations always go hand-in-hand with claims to really care about the issue, and take it very seriously. But any solution offered in return isn't really a solution. "I take this very seriously, but let's not rush and do anything hasty. What we really need is another commission to study the problem." But anything that causes, or might cause, even the most minor inconvenience to the empowered group is rejected as too risky, too fraught, too unknown, too...slippery.

It's a despicable technique that, unfortunately, is highly effective because it lets people who are afraid of change (and, again, typically have disproportionate influence) kick the can down the road. It's pathetic. And cowardly.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And cowardly.

I obviously disagree with your characterization of my post, of my intentions, and of the situation in general. I think people are projecting a lot of things that are simply not there. But I don't think there is much I can say to change your mind based on your post. However this point, I do think warrants a strong response. There is nothing cowardly about taking a position that is very unpopular and receive the kind of response I have. Now personally I think my position is actually quite mild. But you don't, so we will simply disagree on that point. But it is very easy to agree with people in a majority opinion on a forum, where you know you will be commended for doing so. A lot harder to take a difficult to defend, unpopular position on a forum, where you know you will be attacked, mischaracterized, and accused of the kinds of things you accuse me of in your post.

 

[marv]

GreyLord, I confess you are braver than me. I have many thoughts on this subject that I have not yet posted. But will in about a year once all the smoke clears. Too much emotion right now.

Regarding #5, what is the difference between what you call “white washing” and, for example, a DM using Zeus as a deity in a home campaign of his/her own invention (I.e. not Ancient Greece)? Sincere question.

 

[Hussar]

In what way are you being mischaracterized?

You have received multiple requests to be specific - you have refused.
You have received multiple requests to clarify your position and talk about specific issues. - you have refused.
You have been asked specifically, what points are you arguing against - you have refused to respond.

So, you refuse to be specific. You refuse to provide an evidence or proof of your points and you refuse to refine your argument to the point where we can talk about specific points. What is inaccurate about any of that?