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D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

BookTenTiger

He / Him
No, because they can't be trusted and they have more power than individuals. A lot more power. Corporations and companies have the ability to really hurt people (and I mean in way like depriving folks of a livelihood or suing them into oblivion). You can try to hold them to a standard you believe they should follow but if we normalize that 1) everybody in the county will be exploiting that lever, and it is lever that rewards spending: you are giving power to the people who can afford to vote with their dollar and 2) perhaps today while the hobby is very niche and largely liberal, you will see your values reflected in their behavior but a) there is no guarantee that isn't used to hurt people who don't deserve it and or do the wrong thing----like censor content and b) there is even less guarantee they continue to reflect your values as time goes on.

I much prefer when powerful corporations don't involve themselves in morality, and don't take interest in the private lives of individuals.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, there is no "neutral stance" when we are discussing racism. Whatever a "neutral stance" is tends to be the "least offensive" stance, which means tacitly and passively agreeing with the racism and white supremacy active in our culture right now.

Companies used to hire only white males not because they were taking a stance but because that was the neutral stance!

No matter what a company is going to take a stance. It's not about being left or right, liberal or conservative. It's about being actively against racism and white supremacy, which anyone of any political leaning can and should support.
 

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Which just seems like a recipe to leaving corporations open to being manipulated by people who aren't hamstrung by our own moral framework. I'd argue that the idea that corporations ever failed to take an interest in the private lives of individuals or involved themselves in morality is a useful and comforting fiction.

I am not going to participate in something I find morally objectionable, just because some other group might 'get their first' or 'learn to exploit it first'.

Well, companies have often intruded into peoples private lives in the past. The difference now is a cultural shift and a technological one. And both of those things concern me, because while it was bad in the past at times, there were limits. Now those limits are largely gone. To me it boils down to I don't like how I see this unfolding on social media and in society. It seems like it is going some place very bad. To me at least it does.
 

The problem is, as others have pointed out, there is no "neutral stance" when we are discussing racism. Whatever a "neutral stance" is tends to be the "least offensive" stance, which means tacitly and passively agreeing with the racism and white supremacy active in our culture right now.

Sorry I just don't buy this argument, and I responded to it already. Number one you are framing the issue in a way where you are either supporting white supremacy (which invokes imagery of the clan) or fighting white supremacy. Those are your only two choices in the world view you are presenting. I don't think it is that simple. I think invoking this kind of moral language to call people to action is one of the most questionable and suspect moral tactics (one I have seen in my lifetime used countless times to summon people to war). You can be against racism, and you can disagree with people over what kinds of problems there are in this country and in gaming surrounding racism, and you can not want companies to get involved in a conversation that is so complex. I have given my reasons for why I don't want corporations getting involved in morality, and I think it is a compelling reason. I don't think 'you are with us or against us' is a particularly convincing reposes to it.
 

Companies used to hire only white males not because they were taking a stance but because that was the neutral stance!

I would argue that wasn't a neutral stance. And I think equating companies hiring only white people, with companies needing to make some kind of statement on relevant social and cultural issues of today, is not particularly convincing. One deals with the actual practices of the companies. In this case, these companies are actively discriminating against people. The other is just making sure the company expresses the political opinion you want them to express.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip




I have seen a number of posters makes he case for censorship and limits on free expression. And this whole thread, as well as all the others on this topic, centers on whether or not a book published in the mid-80s should exist in its current form, be removed from the sales page, or have its content changed to reflect modern sensibilities (which mean censoring the content).

No it doesn’t. It centres on what should be done. And that’s been decided- adding a disclaimer to the book. A reasonable response that resolves the issue.
 

Hussar

Legend
Am not making the case that we should include more christianity in D&D in order to attract Christian gamers. I am saying including it would attract more Christian gamers (because many Christians only engage media that has a Christian message or doesn't contradict Christian teachings).

Citation please. I’ve seen zero evidence of this. The most profitable and popular movies, books and music of the past several decades have zero Christian content.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip


No, I already told you I am not going to call out other designers. I think it is very easy to come up with examples. People know what kind of thing I am talking about. We've seen it time and again.

No we really don’t. We wouldn’t ask if we did. All we have are your vague assertions and zero actual information.

Be specific. We are.
 

Hussar

Legend
To keep this on topic, I'm going to focus on how when publishers do not actively fight racism and white supremacy they wind up supporting it.

If anyone wants to talk about how school choice, volunteer screening, state testing, and other systems embedded in the American education system are also super racist, feel free to PM me.

I teach 3rd Grade (8 - 9 year olds), and our standards focus on eras of settlement in local history. We work with the local Historical Society, who supply us with a free textbook and field trips. The Historical Society is a group of very, very nice older locals with a real passion for history. However, their textbooks focus 90% on white settlers. The coastal town I teach in was inhabited by Native Americans for thousands of years; Mexicans and Portuguese for hundreds of years, and had the very first fully integrated government housing during the shipbuilding era of World War II. But the Historical Society based their textbooks off of the records they have, and the records that survived history are mostly those of wealthy white inhabitants. The historical society is not intentionally supporting white supremacy, but their textbook communicates that white people are more worth learning about than others. As a teacher, I use the textbook, but I supplement it with other lessons on how immigration and fights for civil rights have impacted our town.

I use a really wonderful Reading and Writing curriculum that promotes a real love of language arts. I really like it. However, our Reading curriculum suggests using Stone Fox as a read aloud. Stone Fox is well-known in young literature circles as portraying a false history of Native Americans and American settlement, and also portraying harmful stereotypes of Native Americans. Recently the Reading curriculum suggested an alternative book to read (Indian Shoes), and gave out curriculum to support it. I don't think anyone who created the curriculum purposefully chose a book that supports the idea that white people are more worthy of being a main character than others, but the very fact that they've amended that choice shows that publishers must actively fight against racism.

One more example. Racism and white supremacy have even affected the choices I have made as a teacher. Recently I reorganized my classroom library, placing all the picture books on a few shelves, and all the chapter series books on another shelf. I realized that 100% of my chapter series books, literally every single series had white protagonists. I did not have a single series that showed the experiences of children of color. Any of my students who looked at that shelf would be viewing the white supremacist idea that white children are more worthy of being written about and read. I am absolutely not a white supremacist. But by not actively fighting against racism as I made my book purchases, even I supported racist ideologies.

I do not think every publisher has to actively fight against racism and white supremacy. But I do think it's the responsibility of every human to do so.

I applaud you from the bottom of my heart.


You rock.
 

No we really don’t. We wouldn’t ask if we did. All we have are your vague assertions and zero actual information.

Be specific. We are.

I've already explained this when it has come up, and I think my reasons are sound. If you don't like it, you can ignore what I say. But I think I have offered fairly complete arguments for why I take the positions I have, and I don't think it is hard for people to conjure up the examples I am alluding to without me dragging other publishers into the discussion
 

No it doesn’t. It centres on what should be done. And that’s been decided- adding a disclaimer to the book. A reasonable response that resolves the issue.

This has gone far beyond the disclaimer. I never objected to the disclaimer. I don't think it is the best solution, but I don't object to them putting up a disclaimer if they want to. There have been many other points being made, beyond people wanting a disclaimer, and that is what I have been responding to
 

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