D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[Doug McCrae]

Yes, but the boxed set is not different on that. Every mook NPC above level 3 (and there are lots) has 1-4 magic items plus consumables. So I really do not get by what definition GH should be low magic...

If this is low magic, then point me to similar equipped FR NPCs in that number. From my memory comparing things I remember for mthe GH blue box to FR grey box, GH seemed to win the "which-is -more- magic- campaign"-contest except for the FR mythals.

I think you're referring to the 1989 City of Greyhawk boxed set. Normally when people talk about the "Greyhawk boxed set" they mean the 1983 World of Greyhawk.

EDIT:
Though a good case can be made that even the 1983 boxed set isn't low magic. Fifteen pages of the Glossography are combat stats for gods and "quasi-deities" suggesting that the PCs are intended to fight them. Many of the bodies of troops described on pages 4 to 7 of the Glossography are accompanied by spell casters. For example hobgoblin soldiery have a 50% chance of a level 5-7 cleric and a 30% chance of a level 3-6 magic user. The AD&D DMG encounter tables, which Greyhawk uses, also make casters a fairly common encounter. The world contains a very large number of different monster types as the encounter tables include the Fiend Folio monsters as well as those from the Monster Manual. There is a "Society of Magi" in the City of Greyhawk which is active in wider society, with a representative on the "Directing Oligarchy". About half of the "Rulers of Greyhawk" are spell casters of some kind.

The accounts of battles (such as the Battle of Emridy Meadows) and each region's troop types otoh do not mention magic. Gygax seems to be drawing on real world medieval military history as his main source of inspiration for these parts of the text.

 

[Coroc]

I think you're referring to the 1989 City of Greyhawk boxed set. Normally when people talk about the "Greyhawk boxed set" they mean the 1983 World of Greyhawk.

yep true, still it is the best baseline with the FR grey box being about 1990 or was it 1987? I cannot tell. There was an older World of greyhawk almanach it was yellow and red mostly only a frame, it might be that many also refer to that one which indeed could be taken as low magic.

 

[TheSword]

What's your favorite example of a "low magic" world in literature, TV, or Cinema?

In an RPG sense, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is low magic. Magic characters are relatively difficulty to play and it isn’t unusual to have a party with no spellcasters at all.

Magic items are so rare they aren’t even included in the core rules.

Yes in the fluff there are some powerful Magic’s going on behind the scenes but these are largely restricted to the elves and Slaan that dont really feature much in WFRP and the old world. Magic in the old world, is hated, feared, and actively attacked by witch hunters.

 

[Minigiant]

In an RPG sense, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is low magic. Magic characters are relatively difficulty to play and it isn’t unusual to have a party with no spellcasters at all.

Magic items are so rare they aren’t even included in the core rules.

Yes in the fluff there are some powerful Magic’s going on behind the scenes but these are largely restricted to the elves and Slaan that dont really feature much in WFRP and the old world. Magic in the old world, is hated, feared, and actively attacked by witch hunters.

Low Versatility is good way to balance casters vs non-casters IMO - look at Warhammer and "colored magic". If you are a red (fire) or green (plant/life) wizard, you are very good at certain things - but not others. The versatility of high level D&D wizard can be astounding - there is almost nothing they can't do. Other systems, by having less versatility, keep the power of high level casters in check.

Magic versatility is very high in D&D, unless you are playing a non-standard ruleset.

Warhammer Fantasy is an interesting case.

The spellcasters there are not powerful but there are so many of them.

• Every race but Dwarves has spellcasters
• Several nations have magical organizations (Colleges of Altdorf, Tower of Hoeth, Ice Witches, The Fay, The Liche Priests etc)
• Every named lord has 1 or 2 artifact tier magical item.
• 2 of the main bad guy factions are either all magical monsters (Vampire Counts, Negash's Undead) or has a big contingent of magically boosted warriors (All 6 types of Chaos)
• There are large amounts of known magical monsters.

But it is sort of low magic in power and versatility

• Only 3 races can even use more than 1 winds of magic. And one requires a special birth (Grey Seers)
• Spellcasters who aren't named or Slann or Elven Archmages barely can cast spells over 3rd level.
• Although every named lord character has OP magic wargear, regular magical items are weak. +1 swords and such.
• Although there are a lot of casters, you can't expect one to adventurer with you as the world is too deadly and no one wishes to risk a caster (except Greenskins and Dark Elves of course)

So even though you can't expect to have a mage ally or a magic item while adventuring, you also can't be shocked if she-dark-elf-stripper-mage burns your tank's face off with purple fire and takes your thief as a slave. And you can't expect to get your wounds healed by magic because good luck finding a Jade Wizard or Life Damsel. You're better off commiting heresy and praying to Papa Nurgle.

 

[Cadence]

Fundamentally, Greyhawk is a setting in which there is, and has been, powerful magic, but the most powerful magic occurred in the past. Whether it's the artifacts and relics (insanely powerful magic items from a bygone age) or the spells (the invoked devastation and rain of colorless fire), there is a recurrent theme of the power of the past compared to the future; one which dovetails nicely with the early D&D practice of graverobbing .... um, exploring dungeons and crypts. The reason adventurers can find all this loot (money and magic) buried and lost is precisely because the past was a foreign country, of untold power. More importantly, however, the present is a reflection of something we can understand- the medieval/early Renaissance period.

Would Greyhawk feel like Greyhawk if it was done in an E6 or E8 style (where advancement went to 6th or 8th level and then changed to feats or feat-like things)? Could you do the needed NPCs to maintain the feel if they didn't go above 3rd or 4th level spells? (It feels like powerful artifacts from a previous age would still be fine, folks just lost the ability to do that.)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Would Greyhawk feel like Greyhawk if it was done in an E6 or E8 style (where advancement went to 6th or 8th level and then changed to feats or feat-like things)? Could you do the needed NPCs to maintain the feel if they didn't go above 3rd or 4th level spells? (It feels like powerful artifacts from a previous age would still be fine, folks just lost the ability to do that.)

So, a few things.

What I've been trying to do in this series of posts is mostly just kindle conversations. About Greyhawk, and about other things in relation to Greyhawk. We keep alive the things we love by talking about them.

But I don't think that my conception of Greyhawk is likely to be the most appealing to the youngest generation. I would be perfectly happy with a released campaign setting of Greyhawk that 1) was fun for new gamers; 2) had something to differentiate it from the other campaign settings currently out; 3) emphasized the historical antecedents of the setting (not to hit you over the head with a hammer, but had references to all those Greyhawk names and places that are intertwined with D&D history); and 4) was respectful to the setting - it doesn't have to cater to anyone's whims or the needs of the old gamers, just not do violence to it like some past products (ahem WG7).

Most importantly, this would open up the guild for 3PP.

Now that I've been asked (HA!) to do the mythos, one thing I was thinking of looking at is the permeability of the lines of divinity and humanity, mortality and immortality as they existed in Greyhawk. But that's going to be another day; long story short, I don't think the issue is with the power of spells, (Greyhawk had powerful wizards), but with the frequency of casting and the number of spellcasters. But that's just me.

 

[Cadence]

But that's going to be another day; long story short, I don't think the issue is with the power of spells, (Greyhawk had powerful wizards), but with the frequency of casting and the number of spellcasters. But that's just me.

So, you would say that if an E6 or E8 adaptation of Greyhawk would miss out on some important things, and it would be better to just use the full rules but adjust how often things appear in the world?

 

[Helldritch]

As I said in my earlier post, Greyhawk is low magic not by right of the rarity of magic items or the number of casters but in the power level of the casters. Yes, some remote places you can see some casters up to level 8. But 8th level has never been considered high level. Usually (or should I say,historically?) high level has always been considered 10+.

Greyhawk has many casters, but the vast majority of them are below level 9. The high level casters are rare and far between. If you compare Waterdeep in its 1ed inception and Greyhawk in its 1ed inception. You'll see that Waterdeep, as a comparable city, has over 10 named wizards over level 12, with one that's level 27+ (depending on the level of the highest player) to a meager 3 named ones in Greyhawk and Tenser does not even live in the city proper.... Only one 9th level cleric in Greyhawk and 9 in Waterdeep.

The difference is not in the power of magic but in the numbers of people able to weild the most powerful spells. Greyhawk has a lot less of those. But my guess would be that the amount of low level casters (under level 9) us about the same.

You can't also take into account the number of magic items from 1ed vs 5ed. A single magic sword, even without any "+" attached to it has more power than a +4 weapon in 1ed. Why? Because there are no longer any creatures hit by +5 weapons only. Any magical weapon can hit any creatures, this is a big power boost compared to 1ed.

Also, in the adventure modules, it was expected that the characters might find about half or less of the magical items listed. Some were so well hidden that one group in 10 found them. It was quite rare for a group to find every single magical items of an adventure module. The 5ed assumption is the opposite. There are less magical items but their placement almost make it a certainty that they will be found (almost, there are of course exceptions but they are rare).

This is why I consider Greyhawk to be low level in magic. Not in the power of the welders, but in the amount of of its high powered weilders.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So, you would say that if an E6 or E8 adaptation of Greyhawk would miss out on some important things, and it would be better to just use the full rules but adjust how often things appear in the world?

From my perspective (and mine only, I am sure many people would disagree with this), I would prefer to get rid of cantrips as a starting point in terms of magic. Removing them immediately makes casters more dependent on spells.

If I really had my druthers, I'd go Vancian after that, and casters would have to determine their spell load out ahead of time. Removing versatility lowers effective power level (and maybe keep it for the sorcerer with additional restrictions and the warlock).

I don't think my approach would be very popular!

The E6-E8 sounds interesting, and I would love to play that, but it doesn't sound specifically like GH ... to me.

 

[Minigiant]

So, you would say that if an E6 or E8 adaptation of Greyhawk would miss out on some important things, and it would be better to just use the full rules but adjust how often things appear in the world?

I think kind of the point of Greyhawk is that the people with classes are in a casino. You play the game until you cash out (retire) or go broke (die). Most NPCs cash out early hence are at low levels. Some keep going, hit the jack, and cash out with enough to create a stronghold or set themselves up for a life of luxury or power. A few jackpot several times, get kicked out the casino, and are the epic NPCs you never get to meet.

For the PCs, there is no limit. Your party keeps going until they retire, quit, or die. There's no artificial cap.

But I could see houserules

• No cantrip. Bonus weapons for ever 2 lost cantrip.
• Instead of a feat or ASI, you can rank up in your class's organization for in world benefits.
• No automaticlearning of spells, you must find spells or research them. Priestly characters must go to church or rank up in church to access new spells.
• Maximum number of revivals based on Con score