D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[Blue Orange]

Seriously, I think most D&D is 'high magic'--beginning characters are expected to be able to cast spells after all. Greyhawk might be 'medium magic' and Forgotten Realms 'low magic', but you compare it to Warhammer FRP or most of the various RPGs that have tried to do Conan where beginning parties may have no spellcasters at all and spellcasting is dangerous and corrupting and the difference is clear.

High fantasy and low fantasy are more about the overall tone of the world--Lord of the Rings is low magic, high fantasy, for example. (You could imagine a high magic, low fantasy story about a bunch of drunken low-level wizards trying to get by between spellcasting gigs, and the more well-read people here could probably give me some examples.)

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Seriously, I think most D&D is 'high magic'--beginning characters are expected to be able to cast spells after all. Greyhawk might be 'medium magic' and Forgotten Realms 'low magic', but you compare it to Warhammer FRP or most of the various RPGs that have tried to do Conan where beginning parties may have no spellcasters at all and spellcasting is dangerous and corrupting and the difference is clear.

High fantasy and low fantasy are more about the overall tone of the world--Lord of the Rings is low magic, high fantasy, for example. (You could imagine a high magic, low fantasy story about a bunch of drunken low-level wizards trying to get by between spellcasting gigs, and the more well-read people here could probably give me some examples.)

To be clear, Forgotten Realms and Warhammer FRP aren't really "low magic" settings either. A low-magic setting is more like Westeros in Game of Thrones, where yes magic exists, but it is so rare that 99% of folks think it doesn't actually exist anymore, and perhaps never did. It only bleeds into the setting through dragons, White Walkers, and foreign agents, which are largely considered "external" to Westeros.

To be frank, low fantasy doesn't really work with any official D&D setting, with the notable exception of the Masque of the Red Death. In pretty much every other setting, and most adventures as well, most everyone is well aware that both magic and monsters exist, and change their behavior accordingly.

D&D isn't even really built with Low Fantasy in mind. Call of Cthulhu and Vampire the Masquerade are, but are pretty different games.

 

[Shiroiken]

Great. I'll go start 4+ Warlord threads.

If you go back to the beginning of 5E, you'll find about a thousand or so. Have fun!

Here's the definition from Wikipedia, and it is of course pretty nuanced;

Since people can't agree on what low magic means, but everyone uses the same terms, people can agree on underlying facts and still disagree whether that means "low magic" or "high magic.

Clarification of terms is really the big issues. @Snarf Zagyg did a pretty good job of laying out the four points used to define it. I will agree that while Greyhawk should be low magic, this thread is more about what is "low magic" than Greyhawk.

I feel that Greyhawk should be done as low magic, even if the earliest version wasn't quite so (mostly due to the limitations of OD&D and AD&D). This would help differentiate it from other medieval fantasy settings like Mystara and the Realms. My recommendation for magic in a Greyhawk setting book for 5E:

• Characters are by definition better than the overall population, especially spellcasters. This is kind of the standard in 5E, but it should be re-emphasized. Spellcasters are rare, but PCs are "special snowflakes" that break the norm anyway. There won't be that many classed NPCs to begin with (as someone said, only 10% of the population tops), and most of them are going to be low to mid-level (probably 3-6).
• Emphasis that the average person in Greyhawk is selfish (Neutral is the dominate alignment after all), and racial animosity prevents a lot of cooperation. In addition, if you consider the late medieval period, almost every form of knowledge was carefully hoarded, as knowledge is truly power. All of this would keep technology and magic fairly spread out, working as the opposite of Eberron (which someone described as wide magic).
• Regular people fear magic. Even "benign" casters would be given a wide berth, or at least given a great deal of respect. Public displays would gather a mix of awe and fear, possibly causing social issues for the caster and allies.
• There are quite a number of spellcaster NPCs, but most of them are going to be much lower level, with most capping out at the Mage from the MM. Creating lower CR spellcasters to use as NPCs would be really useful to represent these lower level casters. Hedge Mages (normal people with the spellcasting feat) would be the most common type of mage, with the Priest being found in important temples (large town or better).
• Magic is unreliable when put into an object, creating a LOT of cursed items. If you look back at AD&D, the number of cursed items is pretty significant. I'd want most of the new magic items to be cursed versions of DMG magic items, keeping players on their toes. Additionally, I'd suggest using my houserule that non-magical identification requires an Arcana check during a long rest, and automatically forces you to become attuned.

 

[Minigiant]

Thiss is why I said the term low magic isn't a god one because there are several axises.

Setting	Magic Power	Magic Frequency	Magic Versatility
Greyhawk	High	Low	High
Forgotten Realms	High	High	High
Nentir Vale	High	High	Low
Lord of the Rings	Low	Low	Low
Conan	High	Low	Low
Warhammer FB	Low	High	Low
Shadowrun	Low	Low	Low
Marvel	Low	Low	High
Charmed	High	Low	Low

 

[Urriak Uruk]

WebDM has a pretty good video on Low Magic (or Low Fantasy) in D&D.

 

[Azzy]

What exactly "low magic" is, is an interesting topic and deserves discussion.

But right up front: However you settle on defining low magic - Greyhawk as originally presented wasn't it!

I just grabbed the original Temple of Elemental Evil (It was the first thing I ever bought on Ebay - many, many years ago). Looking at the village of Hommlet -there are clerics, there are magic users (8th level even), there are magic items, and that's before you ever set foot in the moathouse or the temple itself.

As for magic items present in this and other adventures? Someone used to 5e would have their eyes bug out at the sheer number of magic items in most modules!

The magic status of the world, from the pov of the PCs at least (from a default perspective), will be a world rich in magic almost from the word go.

This!

Saying that Greyhawk is low magic under any metric has to ignore the setting itself, especially when you read or hear Gary's, Rob's, and others' accounts of Gary's Greyhawk campaign or look at the 1e material.

 

[Ancalagon]

Low Versatility is good way to balance casters vs non-casters IMO - look at Warhammer and "colored magic". If you are a red (fire) or green (plant/life) wizard, you are very good at certain things - but not others. The versatility of high level D&D wizard can be astounding - there is almost nothing they can't do. Other systems, by having less versatility, keep the power of high level casters in check.

Magic versatility is very high in D&D, unless you are playing a non-standard ruleset.

 

[Coroc]

That's still not low magic though. low level workers of magic, while not "common" are not really rare - people know where to find one. Mid level workers are rare - but certainly not unheard of, again people could tell you where one is with some certainty. High level workers of magic are extremely rare, but again, people know they exist and seeing one would be like seeing an A list celebrity not like seeing bigfoot (as in people might be skeptical but not shocked and they certainly would believe it was possible).

Next is the actual magic - as in items etc. - from the PC perspective, unless assumptions from the original writing/modules are changed - these items not only exist but are not that hard to come by while adventuring.

So while I don't dispute your numbers at all - they don't actually strike me as truly low magic.

Tbh the only low magic settings for D&D that I am aware of are Ravenloft and Birthright, and both of them only to an extend.

Eberron, FR, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Planescape are high magic. Darksun is a border case, you could define it low magic, but for me Darksun has much more of S&S than Greyhawk.

 

[Hussar]

I think these threads show just how differing different people's experiences with AD&D really were. @Snarf Zagyg seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, to be pointing primarily at the boxed set for what Greyhawk is and how we should look at Greyhawk going forward.

Whereas, to me, the boxed sets were never very important. One friend of mine had one, I read it, and then largely ignored it except to mine a few bits and bobs.

No, to me, Greyhawk was developed in the adventures. And, when you look at the adventures, Greyhawk is VERY different from the boxed sets. As someone mentioned, in Hommlet, you can find multiple casters, at least one MU of decent level, and numerous magic weapons. Several homes of commoners had magic items - whether a magic weapon or a potion or some other bit. To give an example, in Cult of the Reptile God, the constable and his two flunkies, have a +1 suit of plate mail, +1 spear and a +1 shield between them. The town has a 7th level cleric and a 7th level MU in residence. The mayor has a +1 longsword and +1 shield and his 5th level fighter bodyguard has a +2 broadsword. So on and so forth.

Which, as I said, paints a VERY different picture of the average level of magic in the world. Multiple magic items are scattered throughout pretty much every village, town and city that's described in the modules and casters are not uncommon at all. A small town with a 7th level cleric and a 7th level MU is hardly magic scarce. That's a town with a caster that can drop Neutralize Poison and Cure Disease. IOW, a town that's likely going to see a fair amount of magic.

 

[Coroc]

I think these threads show just how differing different people's experiences with AD&D really were. @Snarf Zagyg seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, to be pointing primarily at the boxed set for what Greyhawk is and how we should look at Greyhawk going forward.

Whereas, to me, the boxed sets were never very important. One friend of mine had one, I read it, and then largely ignored it except to mine a few bits and bobs.

No, to me, Greyhawk was developed in the adventures. And, when you look at the adventures, Greyhawk is VERY different from the boxed sets. As someone mentioned, in Hommlet, you can find multiple casters, at least one MU of decent level, and numerous magic weapons. Several homes of commoners had magic items - whether a magic weapon or a potion or some other bit. To give an example, in Cult of the Reptile God, the constable and his two flunkies, have a +1 suit of plate mail, +1 spear and a +1 shield between them. The town has a 7th level cleric and a 7th level MU in residence. The mayor has a +1 longsword and +1 shield and his 5th level fighter bodyguard has a +2 broadsword. So on and so forth.

Which, as I said, paints a VERY different picture of the average level of magic in the world. Multiple magic items are scattered throughout pretty much every village, town and city that's described in the modules and casters are not uncommon at all. A small town with a 7th level cleric and a 7th level MU is hardly magic scarce. That's a town with a caster that can drop Neutralize Poison and Cure Disease. IOW, a town that's likely going to see a fair amount of magic.

Yes, but the boxed set is not different on that. Every mook NPC above level 3 (and there are lots) has 1-4 magic items plus consumables. So I really do not get by what definition GH should be low magic.

I mean, of course the commoner does not have permanent light for his kip, like it could well be in Eberron. But a noble or rich man very well might have this and some more.

Rary (being a level 22 wizard lvl 23 with his ion stone), I think it was him or some other bloke of the circle, wore bracers AC0 , which would directly translate into +10 Bracers of protection, with 5e scaling maybe only +8 or +6 but not less. And this item is not even considered an artifact. The 2e DMG stated for Bracers AC3 that they are well worth a kingdom, on par with mithril chainchirts and rings of wishing.
If this is low magic, then point me to similar equipped FR NPCs in that number. From my memory comparing things I remember for mthe GH blue box to FR grey box, GH seemed to win the "which-is -more- magic- campaign"-contest except for the FR mythals.

You cannot easiöy take FR 3e for purposes of comparison, because although GH was base campaign for 3.x e FR already took over, and you had that baked in magic item system in 3.x e. You really need to compare blue box vs grey box to get the idea.