D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Doug McCrae]

Ehlonna for elves. Erythnul for humanoids. Ulaa for gnomes and dwarves. Raxivort for Xvarts. Who is number five?

I haven't gone back to check, but @Doug McCrae mentioned Wastri, who has a special relationship with the Bullywugs of the Vast Swamp.

I was thinking of Nerull. "Many humans of evil nature, and some humanoids as well, pay homage to Nerull." The text isn't explicit that bullywugs worship Wastri but they almost certainly do. Wastri can summon bullywugs, and his worship has "spread to the Hool Marshes". Who else would you worship if you were a bullywug?

Similarly it would also be reasonable to add Iuz to the list of gods worshipped by humanoids. Again, the 1983 boxed set text isn't explicit, but there are thousands of orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins in his armies so it would be very strange if they didn't worship him in the same way Sauron is worshipped by those under his command.

 

[Aldarc]

@Doug McCrae, though Mirkwood and Lolthlotien are indeed forest kingdoms, the Noldor elves primarily built their strongholds in or near mountains. Even Rivendell, the last refuge of the Noldor, is hidden amidst a valley.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No-one said you couldn't have those opinions. I really wish you'd stop dramatizing this and making yourself the victim at every turn. You've done it in a huge percentage of your responses here.

However, everyone has opinions, and ignorant opinions aren't worth much.

Right, I should stop dramatizing, everyone has opinions.

Mine just aren't worth much....

If you've never seen Buffy and are going on opinions from completely different sources, particularly culturally distant ones (anime) or pre-Buffy ones, you're likely to greatly misunderstand the tone, dynamic, and so on. Equally, if you're looking at a bunch of post-Buffy sources which largely sought to emulate Buffy (of which there have been many, including the recent Warrior Nun), you might be absolutely fine, and even understand stuff someone who had only seen Buffy didn't, because the derivative works had made it more obvious.

Sure, but this is filled with assumptions on your part. Buffy isn't the only one who can do the monster killing in Buffy, for example. This is one of the points the RPG makes - there are basically two types of character as a result.

But you're not really contradicting my point here. If you comment on a Buffy RPG without understanding the source material, then you opinion may or may not be informed or valuable, depending on a lot of factors. Whereas if you understood the source material, or at least directly derivative works, it would be vastly more likely to be valuable, and you'd be better placed to assess the value of your own input.

I've seen this before with RPGs - someone critiques some particular mechanic heavily, not understanding the purpose of the mechanic, because they don't understand the tone/source material. Sometimes this is a failing of the RPG itself. Sometimes, though, people come in really hard saying some mechanic sucks, when they just don't get the context it exists in. And because this is the internet, instead of saying "Oh, I guess that makes sense in context", they often just double-down. Sigh.

I mean, and unlike you here, I'm willing to admit I've been the guy in the wrong, especially when I was younger. I had strong opinions about stuff I profoundly didn't get. When I learned more about it, I felt like an idiot. But people attempting to explain it to me at the time had little impact - whereas understanding the context did.

Unlike me?

Right. I'm not willing to admit that my opinion on a DnD setting has little value, because I haven't read specific works. How dare I

And, you completely side-stepped my entire point.

Source material is great to know, and sometimes mechanics are important for thematic elements. But, even without ever having seen Buffy I know it is about a high school chosen one saving the world from monsters. And I know a lot of stories that do that. And if there is a single mechanic I don't understand for thematic reasons, I would be sure someone would tell me about the thematic connection if it was obvious enough.

But I can't even get to that point. I can't even get to the point of talking about specific mechanics, because I should not even open the thread to read the first post, because (as I have been told) my ignorance means that I can only give opinions that are "not worth much"

See, this is kind of what I'm talking about though - you're assuming that, and it's full-blast assumption.

If Howard and Moorcock are anywhere near as influential as people claim, then the fact that I have read a wide swath of fiction written since the 2000's means the odds of me reading something inspired by them are high.

There are only so many tropes and set-ups in fiction, and a lot of them overlap.

What's with the victim complex here? Did I say it was a problem? It's not, and I am kind of surprised you're claiming you're an English major but this is throwing you. It does mean, however, that you're going to read the setting very differently. There may be stuff that just doesn't make any sense to you without context.

.... Yes, and?

Remember this entire discussion started because I asked to understand, I was told that without the proper context I could never understand. In fact, you yourself in this same post stated "everyone has opinions, and ignorant opinions aren't worth much."

And at the same time as telling me my opinion isn't worth much at all... you also want to stated that I might read the setting differently and that isn't a problem.

Well, if it isn't a problem, then why slam the door in my face before I can even begin discussing the setting? I never once thought I would have a perfect understanding of the setting, but I couldn't even get people to give me the basics for a full day and a half, because "you just wouldn't understand, so I won't even start trying to explain it better."

Dear @Chaosmancer , it is not the fact that you asked, but that you refused to read the stuff that was suggested. Sometimes, to have a better understanding, you have no choice but to read and familiarize yourself with the subject. You clearly rejected that idea and brought lightning onto you.

Edit: Not from me though. I don't expect people to read as fast as I am. But the perceived tone with which you answered was... haughty?

I guess I'm sorry for being haughty, but I still stand by the fact that I'm not going to drop everything in my life to stop and read material to understand a setting that people want to be sold.

I asked "What is the hook for Greyhawk, what makes it so people should buy it from their game store" and when I revealed I had no knowledge of sword and sorcerery, well, the answer basically has boiled down to "If you aren't familiar, you need to learn, because no one is trying to sell it to you."

Sure, sometimes you need to familiarize yourself with the material, but sometimes you can't do that immediately, and I pushed back on this idea that there is nothing about Greyhawk I can understand or appreciate without having first read S&S.


And, if people want the setting to be sold to new players of DnD... that is kind of important, because as I mentioned a while back, someone who wanders into their FLGS, sees Greyhawk, and asks about it, or heck reads a blurb meant to hook them in, isn't going to be hooked by "The Setting that you have to have read the Sword and Sorcerery Genre to understand.". They are going see that, think that, no, they haven't read any of that, and ignore the product.

 

[Helldritch]

I asked "What is the hook for Greyhawk, what makes it so people should buy it from their game store" and when I revealed I had no knowledge of sword and sorcerery, well, the answer basically has boiled down to "If you aren't familiar, you need to learn, because no one is trying to sell it to you."

Sure, sometimes you need to familiarize yourself with the material, but sometimes you can't do that immediately, and I pushed back on this idea that there is nothing about Greyhawk I can understand or appreciate without having first read S&S.


And, if people want the setting to be sold to new players of DnD... that is kind of important, because as I mentioned a while back, someone who wanders into their FLGS, sees Greyhawk, and asks about it, or heck reads a blurb meant to hook them in, isn't going to be hooked by "The Setting that you have to have read the Sword and Sorcerery Genre to understand.". They are going see that, think that, no, they haven't read any of that, and ignore the product.

Sword and Sorcery is it own genre. To get a bit more familliar with it would not hurt you. But on the other hand, the genre has plenty of new authors that are incredibly popular. Just think of the Witcher. That is sword and sorcery. If you don't have the time to read, watch the serie on Netflix. It is a great adaptation and with a watch of Conan the Barbarian with Arnold Swartzen... Schwartzen... Arnold, you'll get a pretty good picture.

Hell, the Witcher alone should give quite a good idea of how to approach Greyhawk. And might I say that the Witcher is darn popular around the world? Even more so than the settings we've had so far.

 

[pemerton]

@Chaosmancer:

There are a number of posts in the last few pages that will tell you what Greyhawk is like, and what some of its tropes are.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Sure, sometimes you need to familiarize yourself with the material, but sometimes you can't do that immediately, and I pushed back on this idea that there is nothing about Greyhawk I can understand or appreciate without having first read S&S.

I feel that I cannot trust your opinion of (pre-4th) D&D since you haven’t read Jack Vance.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If Howard and Moorcock are anywhere near as influential as people claim, then the fact that I have read a wide swath of fiction written since the 2000's means the odds of me reading something inspired by them are high.

I mean, you've read D&D, so yeah, you definitely have. The question isn't have you read something influenced by them, as much as have you read something that has that S&S vibe? It's possible to extract elements of Moorcock and Howard without really getting the vibe at all. I'm sure you've seen this before a lot of times in a lot of media - where certain elements are lifted from a thing but then put with a completely different aesthetic. Buffy is a good example.

You've listed some of the stuff you're reading and interested by, and mentioned authors you like. I'm sure that list isn't even 1% of what you have read/watched, of course, but it did seem somewhat coherent, in terms of suggesting certain interests and a certain focus on recent works. For example, watching a lot of anime and reading a lot of Brandon Sanderson tends to go hand-in-hand in my experience. S&S is largely dead in modern fantasy, interestingly, because epics have come to really dominate the genre. Virtually all major authors working in the fantasy space do trilogies or series of lengthy books, often with ensemble casts, and with heavy world-building.

Now you might say "Well if no-one is doing S&S stuff, does it make sense for a TT RPG?" and that's a reasonable question. However, I don't think what D&D does is much like what's going on in the fantasy space at the moment, for better or worse, either, so maybe it's not a major issue. In my experience, many, perhaps most, D&D groups tend towards a style of play that's much more Lankhmar than it is Game of Thrones or Name of the Wind or First Law or Stormlight Archive (indeed the Stormlight Archive as done by D&D players would be hysterical).

EDIT - Helldritch points out the Witcher, and whilst I'd argue it's a related genre, rather than straight S&S, that actually is a modern example of something that does have a pretty strong S&S vibe. Have you read, played or watched Witcher stuff? It's certainly in the Venn diagram of Sanderson, Butcher and anime.

Source material is great to know, and sometimes mechanics are important for thematic elements. But, even without ever having seen Buffy I know it is about a high school chosen one saving the world from monsters. And I know a lot of stories that do that. And if there is a single mechanic I don't understand for thematic reasons, I would be sure someone would tell me about the thematic connection if it was obvious enough.

There are a lot of stories that do that, it's true. Anime has it all the time - the trouble is the anime approach to that is frequently so tonally and conceptually at odds with, say, the Buffy approach (despite superficial similarities) that it might actually make it harder to understand.

I've seen this a few times. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but I think what's more dangerous is a perceived similarity that masks significant differences, particularly as it can lead to people stubbornly insisting that they do understand a thing when they clearly don't. I'm not saying you're doing this, but it's a pattern I've seen on the internet quite a few times. Hell, I've even seen it from professional critics - the classic is the "This game sucks because I believe it is genre X but it is not like other games in genre X!", which has been used to dump on games from Bushido Blade to Diablo 2 to Demon's Souls.

Anyway, this all comes down to one fundamental thing - the idea that some opinions are better informed and more valuable to discussion than others. I hold that that is the case. I'm unclear if you disagree.

 

[Aldarc]

@Chaosmancer, as an analogy, however imperfect: the influence of the Bible in Western literature is enormous but I don’t think that simply reading the “canon” of Western literature gives a person an idea of how much of an impact the Bible has until they actually have firsthand experience of reading both. Many of these authors presumed that their readers were biblically literate so the allusions and subversions in their own literary works would be apparent despite their literary works not being biblical in nature. But IME, these biblical allusions and influences often go over the heads of many students of literature apart from some of the most superficially trite ones (e.g., “the protagonist is like a messiah figure”) who lack that biblical grounding. Recognition of those elements of influence and impact require knowledge of prior texts as a hermeneutic lens.

So you most definitely have read works influenced by the S&S authors of old, but that’s not the same as understanding S&S and its influence in those works anymore than reading Moby Dick makes a person biblically literate. If you lack the literary background or context then you miss a lot regarding how that influence transpires in new works.

 

[jasper]

No he doesn't, he's a Bard 5/Ranger 15/Thief 13.

correct page 96 AC 3 =17 Str18/00 +3 to hit +6 damage. Int 17 Wisdom 14 dex 18 Con 18, Ch 17 I don't want to figure his saves or to hit because he would use the best on any of the charts. Hitpoints suck at 120 Move 12 call it 30. Attacks 2.

 

[doppelganger]

Gary also statted Conan out in TD#36:

View attachment 125447

Allan.

What does the 18 in parentheses mean for the intelligence?

why do you think Gygax gave Conan such a low (relative to the other very high stats) wisdom score?