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D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk
- Thread starter Snarf Zagyg
- Start date
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
I mean... /waves at the HellfurnacesThe Darlene Map also shows numerous volcanoes.
I think Dragotha might have a territorial claim to White Plume’s vicinity.
Doug McCrae
Legend
This is my fault for removing too much text from pemerton's original post and making his meaning unclear. He was talking about the variety of classic D&D terrain types within easy reach of the City of Greyhawk, so the Hellfurnaces wouldn't count.The Darlene Map also shows numerous volcanoes in the SW.
Helldritch
Hero
But!!!!!!! Red dragons are not limited to volcanoes. The Cairn hills are a perfect place for them too! And so near a desert, players are bound to see some battles between blues and reds once in while. I know this sight made a few groups a lot more cautious...
grodog
Hero
Doug McCrae
Legend
This post is about the importance of demi-human and humanoid races in Greyhawk. It considers only the 1983 boxed set, World of Greyhawk. These races originate in fiction that is not sword and sorcery so it is an argument against regarding sword and sorcery as the only source for Greyhawk.
Elves, dwarves, halflings, treants, goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs derive largely or wholly from JRR Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. "[T]he slopes of the Grey Mountains… are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." (The Hobbit). While kobolds, gnolls, and bugbears do not appear in Tolkien, in Greyhawk these races closely resemble Tolkien’s evil humanoids as they are all non-magical, social, and martial. The D&D gnome probably derives from the "woods dwarf", Hugi, in Poul Anderson’s Three Hearts and Three Lions. This novel should probably be classified as high fantasy: an orphan protagonist with mysterious origins; conflict between Good (Law) and Evil (Chaos); a quest, motivated by duty, for a powerful magic weapon that will decide the fate of the world.
In Middle-earth, the world of Three Hearts and Three Lions, and Greyhawk, there is a connection between race, geography, and morality.
Racial Geography
In Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, non-human races make their homes in specific types of terrain. Elves often live in forests - Mirkwood and Lothlorien. Dwarves live in hills and mountains - the Iron Hills, the Lonely Mountain, the Mines of Moria, the Blue Mountains. Orcs and goblins live in the Misty Mountains, Grey Mountains, and Mordor, a land almost completely surrounded by mountains.
According to the Guide to the World of Greyhawk and the encounter tables in the Glossography, there are elves in most of the woodlands of the Flanaess, and dwarves or evil humanoids in most of the hills and mountains. Treants can be found in six of the forests.
The Celadon Forest is similar to Fangorn Forest or Lothlorien in Middle-earth: "Within the precincts of these ancient trees roam many Sylvan Elves and Treants, for the forest of Celadon is virtually a realm apart… Although many fierce creatures and some outlaws and humanoids will be encountered in the Celadon from time to time, it is not a healthy place for their ilk."
Relations Between Humans, Demi-humans and Humanoids
In Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, humans are found on both the side of good - Rohan, Gondor - and evil - Haradrim, Easterlings. However, elves, dwarves, and hobbits are only good (at least at the time of the War of the Ring), while orcs are always evil. Evil humans fight together with orcs at the Battle of Helm’s Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Humans, elves, and dwarves fight alongside one another in the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit.
In Greyhawk, the Battle of Emridy Meadows features similar groupings:
The map in the Regional Alignments chapter (Guide pg 44) divides the world up by alignment, using white, light grey, and dark grey. "Light areas are closely allied with Good. Those tinged with gray are devoted to evil, or tend toward it."
The following human majority predominantly good lands employ demi-human troops: Geoff, Keoland, Nyrond, Sterich, Sunndi, County of Ulek, Veluna, The Yeomanry.
These human majority evil lands make use of humanoid troops: The Great Kingdom, The Horned Society, Iuz, Sea Princes.
The Benefits of Alliances Between Humans and Demi-humans
A recurring theme in Greyhawk is that alliances between good humans and demi-humans have beneficial consequences, particularly military victory. The Battle of Emridy Meadows was mentioned in the previous section. Other examples include:
"[T]he Olvenfolk within the boundaries of Keoland objected to the warlike policies of the King... In the ensuing struggle, the freemen of the western portion sided with the demihumans." This ultimately resulted in Keoland returning to "its former state of tolerance and prosperity".
"When the hordes of humanoids began attacking, Ratik had ample warning from the dwarves dwelling in the mountains. Companies of men and gnomes hurried west to aid their countrymen against the invaders"
The victorious side in the battle of a Thousand Banners was "a combined host of men and Gray Elves of the [Iron] League."
"In the Hateful Wars (498-510 CY), the combined Ulek states, with cooperation from Veluna and the demi-humans of the Kron Hills, broke the power of the Euroz [orc] and Jebli [goblin] hordes which had nested in the Lortmils and were attempting to spread into the lands around."
Such alliances are a growing trend because "Human and demi-human alliances on a large scale are no longer unfeasible or unimaginable."
Prior to the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire, both the Suel and Baklunish began using humanoid mercenaries which suggests a similar but opposite effect - employing humanoids leads to harmful consequences. Alternatively it could be regarded as a symptom of moral decay.
The Importance of Demi-humans and Humanoids
From the evidence already presented it can be seen that demi-humans and humanoids are widespread. They work alongside both good and evil humans and played a vital role in many conflicts.
In some areas they outnumber or rule over humans:
Demi-human majority - Celene, Highfolk Valley, Duchy of Ulek, Principality of Ulek
Humanoid majority - Pomarj
Humanoid control - Bone March
Demi-humans also form majorities in the Dreadwood and Gamboge Forest. Their numbers are nearly equal to humans in the Gnarley Forest and Vesve Forest. There are 20 000 gnomes in the Kron Hills and 10 000 mountain dwarves in the Glorioles.
However the stated population numbers for demi-humans and humanoids are much lower than the real numbers. "Where populations are given for demi-human and humanoid groups, the figure reflects fighting males only as more complete data is unavailable." (Guide pg 18) It would therefore be reasonable to multiply their numbers by three to meaningfully compare them to humans.
In addition to their population numbers, demi-humans and humanoids have been influential in other ways, often militarily.
"The success of the Oeridian domination of so much of the Flanaess was in part due to their friendliness toward the original demi-human peoples of the area - dwur, noniz, hobniz, olve [dwarves, gnomes, halflings, elves] - whose cooperation greatly strengthened the Oeridians."
In the chronology (Guide pg 9) out of the seven most recent events listed, four involve the actions of humanoids, including their conquest of the Pomarj (513 CY) and Bone March (563 CY). 576 is the current year.
"The gnomes of the region [Kron Hills] were instrumental in the organization of the army which drove the humanoid hordes from the Lortmils (and the Kron Hills)."
"The Lortmil Mountain range contains some of the richest gem and precious metal deposits known, and the dwarves, gnomes, and halflings living in the region are reputedly as wealthy as princes."
The final paragraph of the chapter A Brief History of Eastern Oerik (Guide pg 11) which outlines the current perilous and uncertain situation in the Flanaess states that "Humanoid enclaves are strongly established and scattered throughout the continent".
Of the twenty-two gods detailed, five are worshipped by demi-humans or humanoids. Two have a special relationship with them. Wastri preaches human supremacy and persecutes demi-humans. Raxivort is the only god whose portfolio includes a race - the goblin-like xvarts from the Fiend Folio.
Elves, dwarves, halflings, treants, goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs derive largely or wholly from JRR Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. "[T]he slopes of the Grey Mountains… are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." (The Hobbit). While kobolds, gnolls, and bugbears do not appear in Tolkien, in Greyhawk these races closely resemble Tolkien’s evil humanoids as they are all non-magical, social, and martial. The D&D gnome probably derives from the "woods dwarf", Hugi, in Poul Anderson’s Three Hearts and Three Lions. This novel should probably be classified as high fantasy: an orphan protagonist with mysterious origins; conflict between Good (Law) and Evil (Chaos); a quest, motivated by duty, for a powerful magic weapon that will decide the fate of the world.
In Middle-earth, the world of Three Hearts and Three Lions, and Greyhawk, there is a connection between race, geography, and morality.
Racial Geography
In Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, non-human races make their homes in specific types of terrain. Elves often live in forests - Mirkwood and Lothlorien. Dwarves live in hills and mountains - the Iron Hills, the Lonely Mountain, the Mines of Moria, the Blue Mountains. Orcs and goblins live in the Misty Mountains, Grey Mountains, and Mordor, a land almost completely surrounded by mountains.
According to the Guide to the World of Greyhawk and the encounter tables in the Glossography, there are elves in most of the woodlands of the Flanaess, and dwarves or evil humanoids in most of the hills and mountains. Treants can be found in six of the forests.
The Celadon Forest is similar to Fangorn Forest or Lothlorien in Middle-earth: "Within the precincts of these ancient trees roam many Sylvan Elves and Treants, for the forest of Celadon is virtually a realm apart… Although many fierce creatures and some outlaws and humanoids will be encountered in the Celadon from time to time, it is not a healthy place for their ilk."
Relations Between Humans, Demi-humans and Humanoids
In Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, humans are found on both the side of good - Rohan, Gondor - and evil - Haradrim, Easterlings. However, elves, dwarves, and hobbits are only good (at least at the time of the War of the Ring), while orcs are always evil. Evil humans fight together with orcs at the Battle of Helm’s Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Humans, elves, and dwarves fight alongside one another in the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit.
In Greyhawk, the Battle of Emridy Meadows features similar groupings:
The Battle of Emridy Meadows highlights this growing realization of mutual interests. Contingents of men-at-arms and cavalry from Furyondy and Veluna, together with a force of dwarves from the Lortmils, gnomes from the Kron Hills, and an army of elven archers and spearmen fought together against a vast horde of evil men and humanoids (orcs, gnolls and ogres predominantly).
The map in the Regional Alignments chapter (Guide pg 44) divides the world up by alignment, using white, light grey, and dark grey. "Light areas are closely allied with Good. Those tinged with gray are devoted to evil, or tend toward it."
The following human majority predominantly good lands employ demi-human troops: Geoff, Keoland, Nyrond, Sterich, Sunndi, County of Ulek, Veluna, The Yeomanry.
These human majority evil lands make use of humanoid troops: The Great Kingdom, The Horned Society, Iuz, Sea Princes.
The Benefits of Alliances Between Humans and Demi-humans
A recurring theme in Greyhawk is that alliances between good humans and demi-humans have beneficial consequences, particularly military victory. The Battle of Emridy Meadows was mentioned in the previous section. Other examples include:
"[T]he Olvenfolk within the boundaries of Keoland objected to the warlike policies of the King... In the ensuing struggle, the freemen of the western portion sided with the demihumans." This ultimately resulted in Keoland returning to "its former state of tolerance and prosperity".
"When the hordes of humanoids began attacking, Ratik had ample warning from the dwarves dwelling in the mountains. Companies of men and gnomes hurried west to aid their countrymen against the invaders"
The victorious side in the battle of a Thousand Banners was "a combined host of men and Gray Elves of the [Iron] League."
"In the Hateful Wars (498-510 CY), the combined Ulek states, with cooperation from Veluna and the demi-humans of the Kron Hills, broke the power of the Euroz [orc] and Jebli [goblin] hordes which had nested in the Lortmils and were attempting to spread into the lands around."
Such alliances are a growing trend because "Human and demi-human alliances on a large scale are no longer unfeasible or unimaginable."
Prior to the Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire, both the Suel and Baklunish began using humanoid mercenaries which suggests a similar but opposite effect - employing humanoids leads to harmful consequences. Alternatively it could be regarded as a symptom of moral decay.
The Importance of Demi-humans and Humanoids
From the evidence already presented it can be seen that demi-humans and humanoids are widespread. They work alongside both good and evil humans and played a vital role in many conflicts.
In some areas they outnumber or rule over humans:
Demi-human majority - Celene, Highfolk Valley, Duchy of Ulek, Principality of Ulek
Humanoid majority - Pomarj
Humanoid control - Bone March
Demi-humans also form majorities in the Dreadwood and Gamboge Forest. Their numbers are nearly equal to humans in the Gnarley Forest and Vesve Forest. There are 20 000 gnomes in the Kron Hills and 10 000 mountain dwarves in the Glorioles.
However the stated population numbers for demi-humans and humanoids are much lower than the real numbers. "Where populations are given for demi-human and humanoid groups, the figure reflects fighting males only as more complete data is unavailable." (Guide pg 18) It would therefore be reasonable to multiply their numbers by three to meaningfully compare them to humans.
In addition to their population numbers, demi-humans and humanoids have been influential in other ways, often militarily.
"The success of the Oeridian domination of so much of the Flanaess was in part due to their friendliness toward the original demi-human peoples of the area - dwur, noniz, hobniz, olve [dwarves, gnomes, halflings, elves] - whose cooperation greatly strengthened the Oeridians."
In the chronology (Guide pg 9) out of the seven most recent events listed, four involve the actions of humanoids, including their conquest of the Pomarj (513 CY) and Bone March (563 CY). 576 is the current year.
"The gnomes of the region [Kron Hills] were instrumental in the organization of the army which drove the humanoid hordes from the Lortmils (and the Kron Hills)."
"The Lortmil Mountain range contains some of the richest gem and precious metal deposits known, and the dwarves, gnomes, and halflings living in the region are reputedly as wealthy as princes."
The final paragraph of the chapter A Brief History of Eastern Oerik (Guide pg 11) which outlines the current perilous and uncertain situation in the Flanaess states that "Humanoid enclaves are strongly established and scattered throughout the continent".
Of the twenty-two gods detailed, five are worshipped by demi-humans or humanoids. Two have a special relationship with them. Wastri preaches human supremacy and persecutes demi-humans. Raxivort is the only god whose portfolio includes a race - the goblin-like xvarts from the Fiend Folio.
Last edited:
MichaelSomething
Legend
Since the Forgotten Realms is becoming a basis for a Magic: The Gathering set, that might happen to Greyhawk one day. Would that be a good thing?
Voadam
Legend
Ehlonna for elves. Erythnul for humanoids. Ulaa for gnomes and dwarves. Raxivort for Xvarts. Who is number five?
I haven't gone back to check, but @Doug McCrae mentioned Wastri, who has a special relationship with the Bullywugs of the Vast Swamp.
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