D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[TheSword]

No, I was talking about how the world handles magic's versatility. A human normally can only learn one wind of magic. If you were taught Fire you were not taught Shadow therefore you knew zero illusion spells and zero necromancy spells.

However the Empire had 8 colleges, so there were at least 16 wizards in the Empire even if you only gave each 2. But if there were 15-25 in each college, then there are 120-200 wizards in the Empire. You can't say magic is rare if the Empire has 100+ level 3+ wizards in the capitol.

GW's math is off. It doesn't math the worldbuilding they set up.

You could say magic access is rare. Which is what I said. It's not like Greyhawk where you don't know where casters are and bump into them by luck. Nope, there are dozen of them in Altdorf, you just have no access to them without being a lord or count or general or some other big name.

And every race but Dwarves and Halfling has mages. The issue is that only Elven and Slann can normally use more that one wind. There are no healers in Kislev. Slann are always asleep. Elves don't help nonelves. Chaos sorcerers don't like each other and much devote themselves to one of four three gods to get magic. Greenskins only have 2 "winds". Tomb Kings have 3? winds and don't help intruders. etc.

And because in WHFB anyone can fight anyone else at any time, you could run into enemy mages at anytime.

Warhammer Fantasy isn't low magic.

Wait that’s 120-200 empire wizards out of a population of a few Million. Let’s be conservative and say 2 million and 200 wizards, that’s one wizard for every 10,000 people. Ubersreik with a population of just over 6,000 in the city alone (not including the villages and towns around) has 1 wizard.

That’s 200 wizards spread out across a landmass roughly the size of the Holy Roman Empire. Wizards aren’t bound to the capital, the colleges are there but their members are spread out and aloof.

I think you’re confusing WFB which has characters from all sorts of different times mixed up together. When are high elf mages ever seen in the Old World, except when in disguise? Teclis visited once to set up the colleges and then left.

 

[Minigiant]

Wait that’s 120-200 empire wizards out of a population of a few Million. Let’s be conservative and say 2 million and 200 wizards, that’s one wizard for every 10,000 people. Ubersreik with a population of just over 6,000 in the city alone (not including the villages and towns around) has 1 wizard.

That’s 200 wizards spread out across a landmass roughly the size of the Holy Roman Empire. Wizards aren’t bound to the capital, the colleges are there but their members are spread out and aloof.

I think you’re confusing WFB which has characters from all sorts of different times mixed up together. When are high elf mages ever seen in the Old World, except when in disguise? Teclis visited once to set up the colleges and then left.

Magically density is not the only factor in whether a setting is low magic. The point i was trying to make is that once a person from Warhammer becomes a person of note, someone's whose name might be remembered, the setting bombards you with magic users, magic items, and magical creatures.

The world flips from no magic to high magic once you hit the middle of Tier 2. The issue is the the setting is grimdark and most people never make it that far.

And this only counts for nonChaos Humans, Dwarves, Orc, and Orges. If you are Elven, Lizardmen, Skaven, Vampire, Chaos, or Tomb king, your society is high magic by default. When the magical major nations outnumber the najor nonmagical nations 2 to 1.... well it's hard to call thes etting low magic in frequency.

 

[TheSword]

Magically density is not the only factor in whether a setting is low magic. The point i was trying to make is that once a person from Warhammer becomes a person of note, someone's whose name might be remembered, the setting bombards you with magic users, magic items, and magical creatures.

The world flips from no magic to high magic once you hit the middle of Tier 2. The issue is the the setting is grimdark and most people never make it that far.

And this only counts for nonChaos Humans, Dwarves, Orc, and Orges. If you are Elven, Lizardmen, Skaven, Vampire, Chaos, or Tomb king, your society is high magic by default. When the magical major nations outnumber the najor nonmagical nations 2 to 1.... well it's hard to call thes etting low magic in frequency.

Again you are referring to WFB elements that don’t practically feature in the WFRP. If a character in WFRP comes across a tomb king, it’s because of an expedition to a long lost tomb they don’t fight an army of them. Same for skaven, Lizardmen etc. perhaps you are more familiar with the war game than the rpg. Which features almost none of these things in any quantity.

I disagree with your assumption about Tier 2 play, so yes you are able to secure an audience with the Grey Wizard christoph Engel? So what... what meaningful effect magically is he going to have on your character? This isn’t like d&d where the wizard has a book of spells to share with you (unless you happen to be a grey wizard) he isn’t going to sell you magic items, because they’re incredibly rare, or buff your character like in d&d. A wizard in WFRP is a unique, secretive, distrustful SOB.

Even as foes go, spell casters are far far less common than in say a d&d module or pathfinder.

 

[Minigiant]

Again you are referring to WFB elements that don’t practically feature in the WFRP. If a character in WFRP comes across a tomb king, it’s because of an expedition to a long lost tomb they don’t fight an army of them. Same for skaven, Lizardmen etc. perhaps you are more familiar with the war game than the rpg. Which features almost none of these things in any quantity.

I disagree with your assumption about Tier 2 play, so yes you are able to secure an audience with the Grey Wizard christoph Engel? So what... what meaningful effect magically is he going to have on your character? This isn’t like d&d where the wizard has a book of spells to share with you (unless you happen to be a grey wizard) he isn’t going to sell you magic items, because they’re incredibly rare, or buff your character like in d&d. A wizard in WFRP is a unique, secretive, distrustful SOB.

Even as foes go, spells casters are far far less common than in say a d&d module or pathfinder.

I was more referring to the complete setting itself and not the RPG. The RPG is just a small slice of the setting. A slice where you play nobodies and are half expected not to succeed.

 

[TheSword]

I was more referring to the complete setting itself and not the RPG. The RPG is just a small slice of the setting. A slice where you play nobodies and are half expected not to succeed.

Yes, the low magic part.

I know Ulthuan is drenched in magic. My point is the streets and wildernesses of the Empire where the action happens, aren’t.

To put it another way. Middle Earth has Balrogs, angels in human form, Uber powerful elf princesses, demi gods and magic rings. But you don’t see much of that if you play AIME. Even if you met Galadriel she’s not going to sell you a staff of fireballs.

 

[Hussar]

Yep, But you asked about the map size, or did I get this wrong? Anyhow, the map has about a quarter water. So this means Greyhawk is about 3 times the USA (not counting Alaska). That is a big place to explore. And a lot of islands are not shown. A DM might be tempted to bring a big island that has been previously undiscovered (Isle of Dread anyone?) or anything else that might come to his/her mind.

Actually, I was just wondering which is geographically bigger - Faerun or Flanaess. The reason I'm asking is that it does impact numbers if one setting is a lot bigger than the other. One would expect more wizards, for example, in a bigger space. It does kinda make sense. I'm just trying to get a sense of which setting is bigger and by how much.

 

[TheSword]

Actually, I was just wondering which is geographically bigger - Faerun or Flanaess. The reason I'm asking is that it does impact numbers if one setting is a lot bigger than the other. One would expect more wizards, for example, in a bigger space. It does kinda make sense. I'm just trying to get a sense of which setting is bigger and by how much.

Size is probably less relevant than demographics. In the Volo’s guides, every village inn is owned by a level 11-20 wizard, one of which freely shapechanges into a dragon. The Bargewright Inn is a bad place to be a murder-hobo.

[Edit] To be fair sometimes the innkeeper is fighter... a level 9 fighter with a golem in the corner and a couple of flying +3 swords under the counter

 

[Helldritch]

Actually, I was just wondering which is geographically bigger - Faerun or Flanaess. The reason I'm asking is that it does impact numbers if one setting is a lot bigger than the other. One would expect more wizards, for example, in a bigger space. It does kinda make sense. I'm just trying to get a sense of which setting is bigger and by how much.

Up to the heart lands 1ed FR; I remember that FR is a bit bigger but not that much. The population density is on the FR side if you take the 1983 GH set by a big margin. The FtA and the 3.5ed raised GH poulation by almost a factor of six... Since we're mainly talking about the 1983 box set, the Greyhawk is quite low on population and it was on purpose. It opened up land grabbing by named level PCs and the "taming a land to civilize it" trope that wargammers so loved.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

When it comes to Greyhawk, I think it is difficult to advocate for the setting qua setting as being low magic.

i'd agree 100%. With all the named spellcasters who invented seemingly half the known spells in the multiverse, events like the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire plus all the magical items (vorpal swords, intelligent items, frostbrands, flametongues, hammers of thunderbolts, staves of the magi and power, etc. etc.) plus all the artifacts and relics, plus the laser guns floating around; and the underground is apparently so suffused with magical power it automatically makes mundane drow equipment magical - how could you possibly think that greyhawk was low magic?? now, do you trip over 25th+ level spellcasters like the forgotten realms? no; but the FR is ridiculously over-the-top high fantasy that greyhawk wasn't trying to emulate.

TSR published at least one trying-to-be-low-magic-but-ended-up-just-being-annoying setting, Lankhmar. Compared with that place, Greyhawk is awash in magic.

 

[TheSword]

i'd agree 100%. With all the named spellcasters who invented seemingly half the known spells in the multiverse, events like the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire plus all the magical items (vorpal swords, intelligent items, frostbrands, flametongues, hammers of thunderbolts, staves of the magi and power, etc. etc.) plus all the artifacts and relics, plus the laser guns floating around; and the underground is apparently so suffused with magical power it automatically makes mundane drow equipment magical - how could you possibly think that greyhawk was low magic?? now, do you trip over 25th+ level spellcasters like the forgotten realms? no; but the FR is ridiculously over-the-top high fantasy that greyhawk wasn't trying to emulate.

TSR published at least one trying-to-be-low-magic-but-ended-up-just-being-annoying setting, Lankhmar. Compared with that place, Greyhawk is awash in magic.

To be fair Birthright was low Magic in terms of wizards, though clerics were common and magic did suffuse the setting with ley lines and blood powers.

The core idea of making arcane magic special and rare was achieved.