D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Paul Farquhar]

Do you believe that Mercer would describe Wildemont in terms of Sword & Sorcery and its themes?

Possibly, I would suggest you ask him.

 

[Aldarc]

Possibly, I would suggest you ask him.

To me, Exandria is more indebted to Matt’s experiences in 2e with the more heroic epic fantasy settings of Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance.

 

[Hussar]

Well, genre speculation aside, I've been on record in at least one of these threads about what makes GH distinct- it's much more of a toolbox setting than other settings. FR especially has been detailed down to the shape of windows in some towns. Quite literally. If you want to run a campaign in Forgotten Realms, there is a MOUNTAIN of material for you to use to bring that setting to life.

GH is different though. Outside of some fairly high altitude descriptions, we actually don't know that much about given areas of GH. What is in the Pomarj for example. We know it's infested with evil humanoids, but, that's about it. It might was well say, "Here be dragons" on the map for all the actual information we have on it.

In my Greyhawk, many, many years ago, we finished off the Q module and had the thousands of dwarves from one of Llolth's conquest planes invade the Pomarj. My Greyhawk at that point completely diverged from everyone else's. Which is the point of the setting. My GH and your GH and Bob's GH SHOULD look very different.

If I were king of the world and I could have a new GH book, I'd get something along the lines of the old Boxed set - pretty high altitude material to get the ball rolling, and then get out of the way. Make GH the tinker's setting where everyone and their mother is welcome to put their own stamp on the setting.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

To me, Exandria is more indebted to Matt’s experiences in 2e with the more heroic epic fantasy settings of Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance.

But what makes FR "Heroic"? Players can do what they like, they don't have to be busy saving the world.

Now, I would argue that there are aspects of FR and Dragonlance - characters, organisations, nations - that are very strongly aligned "good" or "evil", which tends to create a conflict that makes it difficult for even the greyest PC to avoid having to choose a side.

But Greyhawk has those too. You could create a Greyhawk adventure in which the PCs are noble heroes preventing the Scarlet Brotherhood taking over the world.

 

[oriaxx77]

Greyhawk is much closer to us, 0 level humans. The heroes are not superheroes. Gods do not walk on it's soil. There is good and evil there, but many things are grey. Not every struggle is a world wide conflict. Good does not alwasy win. Money is a motivator (see early iterations of D&D). It is just the opposite of the current D&D world, that is Forgotten Realms and how things are handled there. Just a side note here, the first edition FR was the same.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I’m telling you that “redemption” in a biblical sense and in the contemporary sense of antagonistic characters who become protagonistic allies aren’t really analogous. (Could you find some examples of the latter in the former? Sure, but it’s a stretch to say that this story trope has origins in the biblical texts.)

Edmund, in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.

(NB, not disagreeing with your point, just trying to score a cheep point).

I would say the biggest Biblical influence on the stuff we are talking about is Conan's Hyborian Age, which resembles the world of the the Old Testament.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Greyhawk is much closer to us, 0 level humans. The heroes are not superheroes. Gods do not walk on it's soil.

That sounds more like a Mission Statement rather than the actuality.

Greyhawk adventures are full of villages populated by NPCs with mid level PC classes, Mordenkainen kicks Doctor Strange's ass, Vecna often takes a morning stroll.

 

[MoonSong]

Greyhawk is much closer to us, 0 level humans. The heroes are not superheroes. Gods do not walk on it's soil...

What are you talking about? Greyhawk features more active gods. About the only setting were you can actually fight and kill gods. Of course they are considerably toned down compared to FR, they aren't that all-powerful. They are more like very high level NPCs. There's apotheosis and there's gods descending to the earth and claiming a country for themselves.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The 1983 boxed set has lots of clear-cut Good and Evil.

With the caveat that different people have played Greyhawk in a different way ...

I think this goes to the difference in how people view "morally ambiguous" within different genres, and how it influenced different settings. The backdrop of Greyhawk is very much with the idea of some of the S&S and pulp fantasy novels that Gygax enjoyed. Not to be too reductive to the genre, but you could often have a world with absolutes, and morally ambiguous characters navigating it.

This is reflected in the design of early D&D, with an emphasis on alignment (even with alignment languages), a muscular neutrality, while keeping ideas of real good and evil as well (reflected in classes- Druids, Paladins, and Assassins).

Greyhawk had real good, real evil, and even "real" neutral. Just like a lot of its influences. And the protagonists (the PCs) could align with that, or be independent of it, just scratching out what they wanted (a selfish moral ambiguity, which often ended up opposed to evil, a kind of darker Han Solo ).

This is in contrast to more traditional "High Fantasy" inspired settings such as FR or what we now think of as morally ambiguous settings, where it's all, "They're not really evil, they just disagree with you." That isn't traditional Greyhawk. Iuz doesn't just disagree with you. Iuz is evil.

 

[Mort]

Greyhawk is much closer to us, 0 level humans. The heroes are not superheroes.

Depends on the level of play, as in most of D&D. There have always been Greyhawk adventures that rely on the PCs being clearly better than anyone else (Isle if the Ape for ex.)

Gods do not walk on it's soil.

They actively do. Heck one whole region is ruled by a real god, Iuz. If you ask loud enough St. Cuthbert (another god) will come help with him. And quasi deities are all over the place.

There is good and evil there, but many things are grey. Not every struggle is a world wide conflict. Good does not alwasy win. Money is a motivator (see early iterations of D&D). It is just the opposite of the current D&D world, that is Forgotten Realms and how things are handled there. Just a side note here, the first edition FR was the same.

This is not setting specific. Most of the WotC general settings can be described this way.

The point is, Greyhawk can be played in many different ways - as Gygax and those after him intended. Yes, it has sword and sorcery elements. And high fantasy elements. And Scifi elements. And a whole lot of others. That's why it's not easy to peg, it, fully intentionally, has many elements in the same setting.