D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Urriak Uruk]

Didn't @Azzy suggest to forget about pitching it to @Chaosmancer and instead try to come up with general selling points for the potential audience at large?

@Azzy said we should treat @Chaosmancer like the potential audience, which we've already done and it's gone nowhere. I agree we should stop trying to convince them.

 

[MGibster]

Honestly, I think most of our younger players prefer settings that aren't so grounded as Greyhawk. Well, you know, as grounded as any fantasy setting could possibly be I guess.

 

[Wishbone]

Honestly, I think most of our younger players prefer settings that aren't so grounded as Greyhawk. Well, you know, as grounded as any fantasy setting could possibly be I guess.

Is Greyhawk all that grounded? I thought it was the setting that had Expedition to the Barrier Peaks among other gonzo concepts.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Look, we've been trying to convince @Chaosmancer for literally pages of this thread! We've used examples like Conan, John Carter, The Witcher, Moorcock and other Sword & Sorcery pieces.

To each one, the response has been "I don't know it, and I'm not interested in learning about it."

Even worse, when we go deeper and try to explain the deeper themes and motifs of S&S, the reply has often been "I don't get the appeal," or "Why do I need GH when I can do that in the Forgotten Realms?"

I think the OP, and others on this thread, have made a compelling argument that Greyhawk is a compelling sandbox world with darker themes, a more grounded world, but maintains some classical fantasy to make it easy to pick-up-and-play.

At a certain point, we need to understand that some folks really aren't that interested in being convinced, and just like the argument itself. If you're still reading and replying to page 30 of a thread and still feign ignorance, I think that speaks volumes.

Dude, what the heck?

I am interested in learning about the Witcher. It is a series I mean to get into, but I haven't found the books yet to read it. And, considering I haven't finished a video game in almost seven years, I don't want to go and buy a game I'm not going to finish... again.

There have been cases made about Greyhaw being grounded. Other people (not me) have said that is false. That between Iuz, Cuthbert, Vecna, Zagyg, and the enormous plethora of artifacts that Greyhawk is fairly gonzo in a lot of ways.

Darker themes? The only "dark theme" people have mentioned is that their PCs are greedy. I literally haven't seen mention of anything else, except a module about slavery.

Look. I am fine being convinced. But I'm not going to be a bobblehead who is just going to lie to you and yes man my way into you people not dumping on me.


The idea of a world where most of the people in it are of dying races? That is interesting. The idea of a conceit where this is the setting for war and nation building, where PCs can climb to challenge the current players of "The Great Game"? That is compelling, and would open the road for a rule set people want.

But you can't sell a setting on "I'm a mercenary who fights for gold" because Modules and Adventure Paths aren't a setting. I don't care if there are literally hundreds of modules and adventure paths for FR that are about saving the world. If I am running the setting, but not an AP, then I can do whatever I want.

Is Greyhawk all that grounded? I thought it was the setting that had Expedition to the Barrier Peaks among other gonzo concepts.

It does. It also was the setting for the Earthshaker, I think. A giant robot.

 

[MGibster]

Is Greyhawk all that grounded? I thought it was the setting that had Expedition to the Barrier Peaks among other gonzo concepts.

Well like I said, as grounded as a fantasy setting can be I guess. Even Conan had a story featuring a giant snake making it's way through a city at night gobbling up anybody who dared remain outdoors, but the Hyborian setting is fairly grounded for the most part. In Eberron, magic is ubiquitous with a high speed rail system, magical street lights in large cities, and magical robots as viable player character options. While PCs might encounter the fantastical in Greyhawk, I don't feel magic is such a common part of life for most NPCs.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

It does. It also was the setting for the Earthshaker, I think. A giant robot.

That is set in Mystara. On the southern continent of Davania I believe.

But we did have the Lolth-ship.

And not to forget Blackmoor’s Temple of the Frog adventure has literal laser guns. So there are attempts to link Blackmoor in Greyhawk’s north to some of the stuff in Arneson‘s Blackmoor too.

[edit] There are far stranger stuff in Mystara too, like the gnomish flying aircraft carrier in Top Ballista. Or the magi-nuclear power plant under Glantri. Amazing stuff.

 

[Azzy]

Look, we've been trying to convince @Chaosmancer for literally pages of this thread! We've used examples like Conan, John Carter, The Witcher, Moorcock and other Sword & Sorcery pieces.

Again, this isn't about Chaosmancer. It's about pitching it to a new, potential audience.

To each one, the response has been "I don't know it, and I'm not interested in learning about it."

Even worse, when we go deeper and try to explain the deeper themes and motifs of S&S, the reply has often been "I don't get the appeal," or "Why do I need GH when I can do that in the Forgotten Realms?"

These are the sort of things that you can expect from new players? "Why should I have to read some outdated fantasy as homework to understand or enjoy this setting?" "Why would I want to play in that setting when I can play in the Forgotten Realms (where almost all the published adventures take place)?" These are valid questions and feelings that you're going to have to address if you honestly want to expand the Greyhawk fanbase. Can it be tiring at some point? Sure. But if you want Greyhawk to not waste away in the annals of D&D history, you need to be more welcoming to new players that don't know the S&S sub-genre (and may not even care for it if they did) and need a different frame of reference and a pitch that actually appeals to their tastes.

I think the OP, and others on this thread, have made a compelling argument that Greyhawk is a compelling sandbox world with darker themes, a more grounded world, but maintains some classical fantasy to make it easy to pick-up-and-play.

While that may seem compelling enough for some of geezers, I think we need more meat on the bone to attract a younger generation that has grown up with a different kind of fantasy fiction.

At a certain point, we need to understand that some folks really aren't that interested in being convinced, and just like the argument itself. If you're still reading and replying to page 30 of a thread and still feign ignorance, I think that speaks volumes.

Like I said, forget about any one specific person. Instead, think in terms of potential players that are wholly ignorant of the setting and sword & sorcery fiction. If you want to grow the fanbase, you're going to have to find other ways of "spreading the gospel" so to speak.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Beowulf,

Beowulf? What did he need redeeming from? Old Age? Unless you are thinking of the Neil Gaiman movie version?

Darth Vader would be a better example.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This thread is about publishing a Greyhawk setting for 5e and trying to attract new players to experience and enjoy the setting that we hold dear.

Is it though? I can't really see any incentive for WotC to ever want to do that.

They might be convinced that there is money to be made in a product aimed at older, already Greyhawk fans, who, though few in number, are deep of pocket.

 

[MGibster]

While that may seem compelling enough for some of geezers, I think we need more meat on the bone to attract a younger generation that has grown up with a different kind of fantasy fiction.

I think that's kind of the crux of the issue. Just look at the difference between the abilities of Jedi in the original Star Wars trilogy and compare them to the prequels. Even in the animated series Rebels, Ezra, a force user trained by a former padawan, pulls off more bad ass over-the-top stunts than we ever saw Luke performing in the original trilogy. Today's young players grew up with Dragon Ball Z and Harry Potter.