Pathfinder 2E Another Deadly Session, and It's Getting Old

[kenada]

Pathbuilder might, but I don't think the option is on Roll20, where all the math outside of character creation takes place. It automatically adds levels to everything (unless there's a setting I haven't seen yet).

It’s doesn’t support it as far as I know. When I used roll20 for sheets, I had a Pro subscription just so I could customize the sheet to implement Proficiency Without Level.

 

[Retreater]

Oh, I thought it was level 8. My mistake. I still think the trap is too nasty as designed, but that’s slightly less egregious.

Looking at table 2-13 in the GMG, the suggested DCs are way past the benchmarks for other DCs for creatures. I get they want to make sure hazards can do a thing, but a hazard that is almost impossible or that instagibs a character isn’t very fun. You’re rewarding being lucky more than anything else.

To be fair, the player rolled really well to get a 31 Perception, and it did feel like a jerk move to have him not notice the hazard due to being 1 point off. Had I realized how deadly the hazard was going to play out, I should've probably given him the success.
The other thing they complained about is that there hadn't been traps or hazards in the entire 2nd book to that point. They were caught off guard, and it wasn't telegraphed at all. It felt like a "gotcha" trap. The lead character wasn't even going to search the door until I reminded him.

 

[CapnZapp]

According to the guidelines for hazard creation, a 32 is beyond an extreme DC for a level 8 hazard. It’s also implied (but not stated) that extremely well-hidden hazards should be less dangerous than overt ones of a similar level. This trap is definitely feeling a lot like the byproduct of not having finalized rules during its development because it’s just too nasty for its level. Not that that negates the other points made here. Just ouch.

That said, being hit by a Phantasmal Killer spell with a DC 32 is entirely plausible for a level 8 scenario.

As I understand it, the difference is that if it came from a creature, it would die much faster.

 

[CapnZapp]

To be fair, the hazard in the module is 10th level. It's not so much that the hazard is extreme, just that it's place in this adventure is a tad unfair.

Facing a monster or hazard +2 levels over the heroes is completely normal.

 

[CapnZapp]

Oh, I thought it was level 8. My mistake. I still think the trap is too nasty as designed, but that’s slightly less egregious.

Looking at table 2-13 in the GMG, the suggested DCs are way past the benchmarks for other DCs for creatures. I get they want to make sure hazards can do a thing, but a hazard that is almost impossible or that instagibs a character isn’t very fun. You’re rewarding being lucky more than anything else.

The core piece of information is that Phantasmal Killer has a much larger statistical probability to kill a fully healed hero than almost any other spell.

Saying this 'cause I think there's too much focus on hazards and miscalculated stats.

Change the trap's effect to almost anything else and we would likely not be having this conversation...

 

[CapnZapp]

It’s doesn’t support it as far as I know. When I used roll20 for sheets, I had a Pro subscription just so I could customize the sheet to implement Proficiency Without Level.

The developer of Pathbuilder have stated an intention to support Proficiency without level in the future.

 

[CapnZapp]

The lead character wasn't even going to search the door until I reminded him.

I have simply assumed characters automatically take reasonable precautions.

Twas a long time ago the whole "you didn't say you looked" routine became old.

Nobody in our group feels time spent repeating "I search the door before I try to open it" phrases is worthwhile anymore.

So it is just assumed, enabling us to move directly to the rolling of Perception.

 

[Retreater]

I have simply assumed characters automatically take reasonable precautions.

Twas a long time ago the whole "you didn't say you looked" routine became old.

Nobody in our group feels time spent repeating "I search the door before I try to open it" phrases is worthwhile anymore.

So it is just assumed, enabling us to move directly to the rolling of Perception.

Right, which is why I told him to roll Perception. Still, it would be great if PF2 (and I'll include 5e here too) actually telegraphed traps better. The dungeon in question had lots of carved statues, bas reliefs of battle scenes, spiked dragon iconography. The party thought nothing of "just another door with a dragon shape on it." Like if it stood out in importance, the party could better prepare not only for traps/hazards but also for a room of importance beyond. As GM I should probably cut the descriptive text down a bit and focus on a handful of interesting features.

 

[Retreater]

Facing a monster or hazard +2 levels over the heroes is completely normal.

Yeah, but I doubt there are many other monsters that can one-shot a character from max health to perma-dead in a single action. And in the case of this hazard, it could blast these off every round. And also only limited abilities could do anything, whereas with monsters, anyone can attack and fight them off.

 

[CapnZapp]

As GM I should probably cut the descriptive text down a bit and focus on a handful of interesting features.

Again, you weren't making any particularly bad mistakes. Actually what you did could be construed as not-mistakes-at-all in just about any other game...

Reading out descriptive text aloud is a good thing that helps with atmosphere. So I do that. Then I secretly roll Perception (or ask the players to roll). If anyone succeeds, I continue by "...in this case you see faint whispers of magic mist... you suspect a trap!" (or whatever the text in question said). Otherwise I would just go "are you ready to bust open the door in your usual marching order?" and start the hazard as soon as they say they're ready.

It's all about cutting down on decision points where the players don't really have any useful information. If there's no information everybody is okay with me assuming everybody proceeds per routine.