D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Shardstone]

Its really sad how much people can attack others in this thread but only the ones who think Rime could be better get talked to by mods, punished, etc etc. You have multiple members making strawmans, saying that we are overexaggerating, and at some points literally saying our opinions do not matter whatsoever - yet we're the ones who get told that we need to calm down and be more civil.

I'm going to stop responding to this thread now. I wish the objectivity and respect was higher here but its clear it just isn't and never will be.

 

[robus]

Its really sad how much people can attack others in this thread but only the ones who think Rime could be better get talked to by mods, punished, etc etc. You have multiple members making strawmans, saying that we are overexaggerating, and at some points literally saying our opinions do not matter whatsoever - yet we're the ones who get told that we need to calm down and be more civil.

I'm going to stop responding to this thread now. I wish the objectivity and respect was higher here but its clear it just isn't and never will be.

It’s not about making strawman arguments, those are fun and super flammable. Same with over-exaggeration (except for the flammable part). It’s about tone. The internet is rife with vitriol and Morrus et al strive to keep Enworld a place where people can have intense arguments as long as people attack ideas with at least a modicum of respect.

Calling an idea stupid, for example, is not respectful.

 

[TheSword]

I think we can all do better adventures. Every time I run a published adventure I spot a dozen things I’d have done differently. I always mean to run a campaign again with a different group but there are so many damn good campaigns I want to run I can never justify it.

However I don’t see that as WOC’s fault. You can’t create something as variable as a published campaign for groups as varied as roleplaying tables and be all things to all of them.

I’m all for criticism in a literary sense, it’s constructive and leads to better products. I’m the first to get annoyed by Storm Kings Thunder’s sloppy plot and poor treatment of the North, or the endless grind of Princes of the Apocalypse. What isn’t much use is the dismissive, counting coppers, entitlement and criticism (personal) that products and writers get when releasing what are overwhelmingly well received products for a very reasonable price.

It’s exactly the kind of things that Owen K C Stephens was describing about the industry that makes people sad. A lot of people called this out as a sloppy mistake, oversight, or poorly researched work. Rather than assuming it was an editorial choice as it seems from the decision not to change it. Disagree with the two year winter or the temperatures or not... it is entirely in your decision to change or not and so easy to do. Change a line on the page, you don’t even have to break a sweat! Or take 30
minutes to do some thinking/read a thread so you don’t need to. The OP did exactly that in their first post - changed what they didn’t like and justified what they did!

Attacking writers and products in the way it has been done in this thread will always generate a pushback. If you go through the thread and look at the really nasty stuff that was said, very little came from defense of the product. I won’t quote it, as it’s not constructive but it’s there in black and white.

“The pleasure of criticizing takes away from us the pleasure of being moved by some very fine things.”
– Jean de La Bruyère

Let’s all be better critics.

 

[Eltab]

The Dwarves can provide food via trade.

The Dwarves could also provide access to the Underdark and guides, should an evacuation be decided upon. Starving freezing noncombatants trying to push through the only mountain pass out just oozes "too little too late" (which does fit the theme of the adventure) - and evokes the Donner Party - but if you go under the mountains instead it might be a shorter easier trip.

Spoiler

Except for plot problem: in this adventure the dwarves with immediate access to the Underdark ... are an enemy.

And the deeper irony: it is warmer underground (50*F -ish) than on the surface.

 

[Cadence]

Attacking writers and products in the way it has been done in this thread will always generate a pushback. If you go through the thread and look at the really nasty stuff that was said, very little came from defense of the product. I won’t quote it, as it’s not constructive but it’s there in black and white.

“The pleasure of criticizing takes away from us the pleasure of being moved by some very fine things.”
– Jean de La Bruyère

Let’s all be better critics.

Doesn't being "better critics" require being critics. For a while there it felt like much of the "defense" wasn't trying to be critical of anything except the "offenses" word choices or concerns. It feels to me it got a lot better towards the end and started non-snidely addressing the concerns.

"Unthinking respect of authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Einstein

 

[robus]

I want to like WotC’s adventures (I do like their supplements, XgtE has a bunch of helpful stuff and I’m looking forward to TCoE.) but I’ve become frustrated by the unnecessary extra work they seem to frequently entail to make them into something I can present to my players. I don‘t understand why they don‘t keep them more straightforward. Things get complicated enough once the players start breaking things!

Anyway, I’m sure this adventure is lovely for those that want to run it once the inevitable tweaks have been applied.

 

[TheSword]

Doesn't being "better critics" require being critics. For a while there it felt like much of the "defense" wasn't trying to be critical of anything except the "offenses" word choices or concerns. It feels to me it got a lot better towards the end and started non-snidely addressing the concerns.

"Unthinking respect of authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
- Einstein

True and Aristotle said “To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”

But calling someone’s work garbage, trash, lazy, expensive (when it clearly isn’t), and poorly researched (when it isnt claiming to be scientifically accurate) isn’t literary criticism, it’s personal criticism. Some of this is subjective I accept. But when it’s being delivered by people who by their own confession haven’t read the book or have only skimmed and don’t buy these books, it will garner a response.

It’s not being a fanboy. It’s being fair.

 

[robus]

True and Aristotle said “To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”

But calling someone’s work garbage, trash, lazy, expensive (when it clearly isn’t), and poorly researched (when it isnt claiming to be scientifically accurate) isn’t literary criticism, it’s personal criticism. Some of this is subjective I accept. But when it’s being delivered by people who by their own confession haven’t read the book or have only skimmed and don’t buy these books, it will garner a response.

It’s not being a fanboy. It’s being fair.

I would like to think so, but I don’t see a trajectory where the adventures are getting better. That makes me think that lessons aren’t being learned from one publication to the next.

Forget personal criticism. What does that say about WotC’s process?

 

[TheSword]

I would like to think so, but I don’t see a trajectory where the adventures are getting better. That makes me think that lessons aren’t being learned from one publication to the next.

Forget personal criticism. What does that say about WotC’s process?

You don’t think Tomb, Descent and Rime are better than Rise, Tyranny, Storm King and Princes?

 

[Umbran]

This is a bit meaningless. D&D isn't GoT, and GoT isn't D&D.

But, we can guess that very large numbers of the new D&D players out there know GoT, and may find the framing familiar and attractive. Entire genres of fiction are successfully based on copying themes, so we can hardly say that picking up a theme for one adventure is somehow a lousy idea.

And, by the same argument structure D&D isn't modern reality either, so there's no reason for it to match reality. And the whole idea that the 2-year winter doesn't make sense is based on expectations of current reality.

Our current time has us using a food and resource stream that is "just enough, just in time", enabled by modern shipping practices. However, back in the day, folks who depended on local weather conditions for their livelihoods generally kept large stores of food locally, because any particular year could have a drought, or other weather pattern that devastated food sources. Well-prepared castles filled with people could in some cases last years of siege.

In the Bible, forewarned by Joseph, the Pharaoh was able to prepare his land for seven years of drought and famine, with enough to spare to take refugees. So it isn't like legend somehow lacks precedents, such that this is outlandish in our stories.

So, for this to make sense... the people plan for bad years! One bad year went by, and they didn't sweat it much, as they were prepared. The second bad year has gone by, and now they are worried.