D&D 5E (2014) A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Eltab]

Now I'm going to have to find my Public Library's copy of Frostburn. IIRC there is a sliding scale of (1) temperature wind &c and (2) cold-weather gear / spells that determine your CON Save DC vs exposure to cold.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Jumped out at me. FWIW, that one's on your DM. As written, you can definitely leave the dungeon.

I was told that we couldn't leave until level 3 of the Dungeon. We never made it past level two (DM and everyone else got bored and moved to something else)

Can you leave before then?

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Okay so my view is that this mod was most likely not written to be just a mod. Like was said above it is also a gazzater.
However it also must tow a line. I think WoTC bit off a big scary post apocalyptic story then could not chew it... so it ended up swallowing a light hearted kinda bad story.

I noticed this as well in my skimming. There was a lot... hesitance about how dark the story could get. But they also included human sacrifice. It was like they were too nervous to commit to the tone they wanted.

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The problem with this lone of thought, though, is it's not implicit that it's two years of deep winter or that the current conditions are the same as when Auril's Everlasting Gobstoppers Winter started rather than the final culmination of Auril's.prolonged magical workings. I think that the most infuriating part of this conversation is the assumption that this nuclear divine winter just "switched on" at full strength one day rather than a slow, creeping onset of an ever-increasingly winter hellscape. Sure, you can read it that way if you're so inclined but I haven't seen anywhere where it is outright stated to be so. It comes down to a case of: do you want to interpret this in a manner that is ridiculously unrealistic or in a manner that is just fantasy unrealistic?

We really aren't given a lot of other options though.

For example, while it could easily have been getting colder and no one noticed, it wouldn't have gotten darker the same way. People would have noticed that.


But, as far as I can find, no one in the entire adventure talks about knowing things were going to be bad when the days kept getting shorter and shorter over the course of the year. That would have been an easy thing to put in, if the problem was a slow, creeping change over the course of the last two years.

 

[MikalC]

I think maybe the

no, it’s just different priorities from what you prefer. Nothing to do with quality.

I am personally glad that they don’t worry about stuff like this.

Yeah who gives a damn about consistency and quality in a product I’m spending my hard earned money on

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah who gives a damn about consistency and quality in a product I’m spending my hard earned money on

Its so weird to see people talk about preference as if it’s an objective matter of quality.

It isn’t.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The problem with this lone of thought, though, is it's not implicit that it's two years of deep winter or that the current conditions are the same as when Auril's Everlasting Gobstoppers Winter started rather than the final culmination of Auril's.prolonged magical workings. I think that the most infuriating part of this conversation is the assumption that this nuclear divine winter just "switched on" at full strength one day rather than a slow, creeping onset of an ever-increasingly winter hellscape. Sure, you can read it that way if you're so inclined but I haven't seen anywhere where it is outright stated to be so. It comes down to a case of: do you want to interpret this in a manner that is ridiculously unrealistic or in a manner that is just fantasy unrealistic?

True, and a best reading would be that it's not a sudden onset. I don't think I've argued for sudden onset anywhere. What is said, though is that the winter has lasted for two years. That's not a cold spring, summer, or fall, that's explicitly winter, for two years. Whether or not the sunlight issue has been two years or not, that kind of prolonged cold -- staying in winter temps -- is deadly by itself. So, in the end, to my point, it doesn't really matter if it was a slow onset two years ago, the issue has been winter temperatures and presumably light levels (which can be better than no sunlight, but aren't great) for two years. Honestly, if they had actually said that it's been a slow slide and it's now stuck recently in deep winter, that would have done a huge amount of work towards my criticisms. They didn't, and I shouldn't have to squint and come up with creative readings to save it, either.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Its so weird to see people talk about preference as if it’s an objective matter of quality.

It isn’t.

Happening? In this thread? I'm not sure where you were headed with this, but if it was to say that people claiming preference is objective isn't happening in this thread, I completely agree. Not sure why you felt the need to say that, but, sure, okay, 100%.

People in this thread are actually pointing to specific things and discussion how those things can play out at reasonable tables, and why that might be a problem, which is neither preference nor claiming preference is objective, it's pointing to actual problems that can and, going with the OP, do occur. That you don't have that problem is great! Happy to hear it! It's also, in no way, an actual rebuttal to the criticism.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Just out of interest, why are you expending so much energy criticising a product you have no intention of buying?

I mean... I have no intention of getting my nose pierced... but I don’t go on an open assault on tattoo parlours?

When I first engaged, I had not yet decided to not buy. But my current decision to not buy doesn't mean that I don't have valid criticisms or that I should just shut up about it. Others can find value in my criticisms, which are, ultimately, pretty darned mild as these things go. I haven't maligned WotC, or the product at large, but kept to specific issues I see with how it's put together -- issues that have gone directly to my decision that I'll be skipping this one.

As for your tattoo example -- this is a poor example. The counterpart to this would be complaining about WotC even if you never, ever purchase or engage with any of their products. And, even then, depending on your criticism it can still be valid. Being a consumer, or a purchaser of a specific product or service, is not required to have good or valid criticism. I'm not on Twitter, should I not be able to complain about it at all, despite the fact that Twitter influences my life indirectly? Same here. I've investigated Frostmaiden -- I've read the excerpts printed online, I've read numerous synopses by those that have purchased the product, and I've participated in discussion. None of the premises I've based my opinions on have been refuted -- what I'm complaining about it actually in the book. That it, and other complaints I haven't presented in full because they are much more preference based, have led me to not purchase has absolutely no impact on the validity of my criticisms.

Further, you have mostly not been addressing my criticisms but instead attacking the validity of even being able to make them. You do so again, here. You're not actually trying to defend the product by showing how the criticism doesn't apply or can be mitigated but instead by trying to argue that I shouldn't be able to criticize the work at all, or, if I do, no one should listen because I'm not a purchaser. I continue to respond, in part, because I find that line of attack to be worth contesting.

But, to answer your question, I provide my criticism because others have before me. I've found good, reasoned criticism, even that I disagree with, to be some of the most enlightening aspects of examining my hobby. Had people been silent with criticism on a product they've chosen to not purchase, then my experience would have been lesser. So, providing good criticism is, to me, a valuable thing to do. Note that I've been very supportive of WotC, and understanding of how the issues I'm criticizing can happen, but I'm also of the opinion that if others never hear this criticism, they my purchase and be disappointed. Whereas, now, they may still purchase, but having been informed of possible potholes, now have a much better experience. This is my goal. What is your goal in preventing criticism?

 

[TheSword]

None of the premises I've based my opinions on have been refuted -- what I'm complaining about it actually in the book. That it, and other complaints I haven't presented in full because they are much more preference based, have led me to not purchase has absolutely no impact on the validity of my criticisms.

I think if you read back you’ll see people have responded to your specific criticisms.

Chief of which is the lack of full sunlight. Can I ask where your evidence is that coniferous trees and plant roots buried beneath snow with 4 hours polar twilight a day will die completely within 2 years... not just be dormant? I have posted links to articles demonstrating life can survive for 3-6 months. Is it just your assumptions or do you have actual evidence beyond your own opinion.

[Edited for correct quote]

 

[Coroc]

With the way PCs accumulate coins and gems with such frequency, I tend to view adventurers as ballers who roll into town with money to burn making it rain wherever they roam. But this is just my response to the ridiculously way gold is undervalued in the game. In my first 5E campaign I flat out told the PCs there were two economies: regular and adventurer. A regular person doesn't pay 50 gold for a draft horse but the PCs do because they're adventurers. Of course, the fact that adventurers spend so freely makes them very popular wherever they go.

yea that might be because of the armadas of clerics and druids providing the population with free food, lighting and heating like some guys above suggested.
Maybe they also have free internet in tentowns, aka: Need a sending spell theres a cleric for that.
All of that makes your plain iron rations and lantern oil expensive as f*** of course, all of that stuff needs to be handcrafted now, even the ladders which are coming in so handy if no ten foot pole is around.
Because who needs a ladder? Wizards and other casters are so frequent now in the realm there surely is one around to cast levitate for you if you need your roof fixed

 

[Burnside]

I was told that we couldn't leave until level 3 of the Dungeon. We never made it past level two (DM and everyone else got bored and moved to something else)

Can you leave before then?

Same way you got in, through the Yawning Portal. You pay a 1 gold piece toll and they lower the elevator.