D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
What about the survival of the animal life? Is it legitimate to criticize the adventure regarding this?
Which makes me wonder how it could have been that cold that long with the sea still doing fine. Feels like non-freezing relative warmth of the one should be doing something with the cold of the air or vice-versa.

Anyway, at some point further north where it's iced in during a usual winter, it reminds me of the baluga whale/polar bear seen in the BBC's Blue Planet. Lot of dead whales who ran out of air holes up there when they finally iced over with no though. And probably a lot of dead bears.

 

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Laurefindel

Legend
Which makes me wonder how it could have been that cold that long with the sea still doing fine. Feels like non-freezing relative warmth of the one should be doing something with the cold of the air or vice-versa.
While I agree that they got pretty heavy-handed with a 2-year long winter with averaging temperatures of -45C (I’m going by earlier posts here, is that correct?), there is a point where one needs to accept that a magical winter can ignore the geological and meteorological forces that cause temperature to drop or temperate. So while I raise an eyebrow at some of that apoca-winter’s immediate concequences (or lack thereof) I don’t question how it can happen.

As far as I’m concerned, Auril could create an eternal winter in the middle of a Sahara-like desert and I’d buy it. Magic is, after all, the very definition of what goes against t established order of nature.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
While I agree that they got pretty heavy-handed with a 2-year long winter with averaging temperatures of -45C (I’m going by earlier posts here, is that correct?), there is a point where one needs to accept that a magical winter can ignore the geological and meteorological forces that cause temperature to drop or temperate. So while I raise an eyebrow at some of that apoca-winter’s immediate concequences (or lack thereof) I don’t question how it can happen.

As far as I’m concerned, Auril could create an eternal winter in the middle of a Sahara-like desert and I’d buy it. Magic is, after all, the very definition of what goes against t established order of nature.
Yup, no problems with the cause of the winter -- "A god did it" is pretty much a tried and true explanation for lots of stuff.
 

Oh, and where does the mod say it's been total darkness for 2 solid years? Auril has been f'ing with the weather for a couple of years, but does not say how gradual the changes have been. That, and it's not complete pitch black even as the story starts, it's still twilight.

It is explicitely said that her spell prevents the sun from raising above the horizon. While the effect on temperature can be gradual, the effect on illumination is not: her spell is explicitely stated to produce 20h of night and only 4h of twilight around noon. While it is not explicitely written that she's been casting her spell for two years, it is the most natural reading.

In the very first page of the adventure, it is explained that she's casting her spell to prevent the sun to rise, which locks IWD into an eternal winter with no sunlight to melt the snow. The absence of the sun is said to be the cause of the lowering of the temperature. It would be strange for the consequence to start appearing before the cause. She is also said to be exhausted by the casting of her spell and can just cause blizzard to block the mountain passes and create bad winds at sea: she is not said to take any other action to cause a drop in temperature or prolong winter than preventing the sun from rising.

In the Entertainer background, it is suggested a character could have settled in Icewind Dales three years ago, and "Since then, Auril the Frostmaiden has cast an evil spell over the dale, preventing you from returning home". She is not said to have taken various actions preventing the character from returning home and recently has started to cast a spell... In the Guild Artisan background, the shop was doing well until Auril "cast her evil spell to banish the sun" and now, businesses are suffering. I'd surmise they are suffering because the sun-banishing spell has caused harsh conditions and disrupted logistics, not because the winter was very bad for two years and business was OK but it's just the recent lack of light in the day that disrupted trade?

The opening read-alound mentions that "This land has not felt the warmth of the sun in over two years. In fact, the sun no longer appears above the mountains, not even in what should be the height of summer. In this frozen tundra, darkness and bitter cold reign as king and queen. Most Dale residents blame Auril. The shimmering aurora that weaves across the sky each night is said to be her doing -- a potent spell to keep the sun at bay". The residents also seem to think Auril blocking the sun is the cause of the harsh winter, not just a more recent development. I have seen nothing in the adventure supporting the idea that the sun-blocking spell is just a recent development amid the two-years long winter.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It is explicitely said that her spell prevents the sun from raising above the horizon. While the effect on temperature can be gradual, the effect on illumination is not: her spell is explicitely stated to produce 20h of night and only 4h of twilight around noon. While it is not explicitely written that she's been casting her spell for two years, it is the most natural reading.

In the very first page of the adventure, it is explained that she's casting her spell to prevent the sun to rise, which locks IWD into an eternal winter with no sunlight to melt the snow. The absence of the sun is said to be the cause of the lowering of the temperature. It would be strange for the consequence to start appearing before the cause. She is also said to be exhausted by the casting of her spell and can just cause blizzard to block the mountain passes and create bad winds at sea: she is not said to take any other action to cause a drop in temperature or prolong winter than preventing the sun from rising.

In the Entertainer background, it is suggested a character could have settled in Icewind Dales three years ago, and "Since then, Auril the Frostmaiden has cast an evil spell over the dale, preventing you from returning home". She is not said to have taken various actions preventing the character from returning home and recently has started to cast a spell... In the Guild Artisan background, the shop was doing well until Auril "cast her evil spell to banish the sun" and now, businesses are suffering. I'd surmise they are suffering because the sun-banishing spell has caused harsh conditions and disrupted logistics, not because the winter was very bad for two years and business was OK but it's just the recent lack of light in the day that disrupted trade?

The opening read-alound mentions that "This land has not felt the warmth of the sun in over two years. In fact, the sun no longer appears above the mountains, not even in what should be the height of summer. In this frozen tundra, darkness and bitter cold reign as king and queen. Most Dale residents blame Auril. The shimmering aurora that weaves across the sky each night is said to be her doing -- a potent spell to keep the sun at bay". The residents also seem to think Auril blocking the sun is the cause of the harsh winter, not just a more recent development. I have seen nothing in the adventure supporting the idea that the sun-blocking spell is just a recent development amid the two-years long winter.
The bolded part is a pretty clear statement. You'd have to bring out quite a few metaphor horses to drag that into the vicinity of the darkness being a recent thing.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
The bolded part is a pretty clear statement. You'd have to bring out quite a few metaphor horses to drag that into the vicinity of the darkness being a recent thing.

A few lines of text here-and-there in the adventure tells us that Winterpocolypse has lasted two years. Everything else in the adventure implies that it has not. Personally, I chose to go with the parts that make it not stupid as opposed to focussing on the parts that make it yes-stupid.

I mean, I can't even get my head around how a spell would stop the sun from rising in an isolated part of the world, but the rest of the world is fine. (Really powerful illusion, maybe?)

I've never once in 35 years used an adventure without spotting something that I thought was stupid and ignoring it. I didn't even consciously notice this one until I got involved in this discussion (so quick was I to ignore anything that tried to tell me that it was Full Dark Winter for Two Whole Years).

Like some people here have mentioned, that was probably the result of multiple hands creating this book for multiple purposes. It's an Icewind Dale Gazeteer and a Horror-Inspired Adventure, but clearly there's some tape still showing from where it got pasted together. (And it seems they had some push-back, or back-and-forth on just how much horror to include).

It's a little clunky, to be sure, but as far as Adventures go, all said, I still maintain that this one has some really great bits. Above average, in the very least.
 


briggart

Adventurer
And yet, most of the older characters The Game of Thrones have experienced winter lasting several years! They survived.

yes I agree different muscles get used in TT but at the same time fiction will always lead our expectations of RPG. Every TTRPG is derivative from some form of literature or media
Catching up on the thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned. Year long winters are a fact of nature in GoT. People have known about this for generations, and use the year long summers to prepare for that. People in IWD have always experienced 'normal' length seasons and now are suddenly facing a 2-year long winter. It's like driving in an area where there are gas station every 10Km or so, you have stopping for a fill-up with still 20Km of fuel left in the tank only to be told that they are out of gas and so it's every station within 100Km, and no one knows when the refueling truck is coming.
 

TheSword

Legend
Catching up on the thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned. Year long winters are a fact of nature in GoT. People have known about this for generations, and use the year long summers to prepare for that. People in IWD have always experienced 'normal' length seasons and now are suddenly facing a 2-year long winter. It's like driving in an area where there are gas station every 10Km or so, you have stopping for a fill-up with still 20Km of fuel left in the tank only to be told that they are out of gas and so it's every station within 100Km, and no one knows when the refueling truck is coming.
It’s a good point regarding human starvation.

I used it more to justify a fictional world where not all plant, tree and animal life is destroyed.
 

A few lines of text here-and-there in the adventure tells us that Winterpocolypse has lasted two years. Everything else in the adventure implies that it has not. Personally, I chose to go with the parts that make it not stupid as opposed to focussing on the parts that make it yes-stupid.

I don't think participants in this thread have been arguing that the error is impossible to correct. I understand the debate to be more along the line of "it's infuriating that in a commercial products glaring and easily to correct errors slip through" vs "the product wouldn't be improved if these errors were fixed, so stop complaining as it's easy to correct". I'd add that if a problem which makes the setup stupid (to quote your own word) is easy to correct, it's even more a reason to be irritated that the problem stayed in the final version.
I mean, I can't even get my head around how a spell would stop the sun from rising in an isolated part of the world, but the rest of the world is fine. (Really powerful illusion, maybe?)

IMHO, that's the part where suspension of disbelief kicks in: one has to accept the supernatural elements of the story to make it work. We are told that Auril does that, and that's magic, so it works [and yes, I'd say the easiest way would be to cover the dale in a dome of light-reflecting illusion if we were to discuss that). On the other hand, if the module doesn't provide explanations for a few things like "where has the food for wild animal come from during the past two years ?", you can't suspend disbelief at the magical or supernatural explanation, since there is no explanation. Suspension of disbelief isn't acception of internal inconsistency. I guess few would have a problem with magic user being drafted into mass producing food to ease the situation for the starved population, as suspension of disbelief requires that the audience to accept the supernatural elements of the story for it to work, if it was a situation described in the book. It is not, however, so we don't have anything to suspend disbelief about...

I've never once in 35 years used an adventure without spotting something that I thought was stupid and ignoring it. I didn't even consciously notice this one until I got involved in this discussion (so quick was I to ignore anything that tried to tell me that it was Full Dark Winter for Two Whole Years).

Like some people here have mentioned, that was probably the result of multiple hands creating this book for multiple purposes. It's an Icewind Dale Gazeteer and a Horror-Inspired Adventure, but clearly there's some tape still showing from where it got pasted together. (And it seems they had some push-back, or back-and-forth on just how much horror to include).

Yes, that's certainly the crux of the problem. The products sits between two extremes. In a sidebar they warn that people might be inconfortable with certain themes. But the adventure downplays so much of the "horror elements" that I don't find anything to be worried about (except maybe the human sacrifices, but in a game where killing people is the expect standard behaviour to solve problem, I'd say it's much less shocking).

The question of "how to solve the situation where the writer couldn't decide between a grim and gritty adventure and a Dale sourcebook?" can be either solved, as you did, by removing the elements that makes the adventure yes-silly, so you have a shorter winter, a minimal loss of light, and a legitimate worry that the Ten-Town won't survive if spring doesn't occur soon, which is a great adventure setup but minimally horror-themed or you could accept the premise of two years under the evil grasp of Auril, and rewrite many parts to take it to its logical conclusion (downplaying it only as to allow for a few survivor here and there, so there are still NPCs to interact with...) It is extremely stimulating (and as a DM I'd probably just do that, provided the group I play with is OK with a real grim story) but it requires more work to adhere to the "horror story" of the initial pitch.


With regard to tree surviving or not, the question is "how many trees were there in the first place ?" Initially, I was envisioning a forest-covered area in the dale, like a Canadian forest or a taiga. Reading the module, I developed a diferent vision: even when it's business as usual, there are hints at much less trees than that. There are very few trees on the IWD map, and I think we should read it as "a few small trees and shrubs where there is a tree picture, nothing where there is none". We're explicitely told that IWD has few trees, and 7 out of 10 of the Ten-Towns rely on whale oil for heating because wood is too precious to burn. Even the inuit way of life in the tundra let them have access to wood for camp fires... so the regular situation seems to be one of a much harsher conditions even before Auril's involvement, with only a few shrubs and the occasional dwarf tree.
 

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