Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Flamestrike]

If I mistakenly believe I am terminally ill, that does not make it okay to deliberately infect me with anthrax.

Believing that something is factually true does not mean one likes it or would choose for it to be that way.

I feel like peoples objections to this thread are more about themselves than fantasy death.

People, we come from nothiing, we live, we die, we return to nothing. Get with it.

 

[Dausuul]

I feel like peoples objections to this thread are more about themselves than fantasy death.

People, we come from nothiing, we live, we die, we return to nothing. Get with it.

Way to not address the point.

 

[glass]

But why, when that was likely the system for Millenia? Over 30,000 years of history passed by without a Wall of the Faithless. What changed?

I don't know, why ask me? Ao became more of a dick over the millenia maybe?

_
glass.

 

[Umbran]

I mean, does it not make sense that a Goddess of Mercy would act to stop pointless torture and cruelty perpetuated by Myrkul? But, him making the wall is never challenged. All the sources I read simply say "Myrkul created the wall" No gods went to stop his Evil, no one interfered.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Maybe the Goddess of Mercy found and threw the most powerful mortals she could get at the problem, and Myrkul squished them like bugs, such that their story is not worth the column-inches to print it. Only the winners get their story told, you know.

 

[Mirtek]

Maybe the scene is handled well, but why does Cyric get to act to stop Torm, but no God or goddes ever acted to stop Myrkul?

I mean, does it not make sense that a Goddess of Mercy would act to stop pointless torture and cruelty perpetuated by Myrkul? But, him making the wall is never challenged. All the sources I read simply say "Myrkul created the wall" No gods went to stop his Evil, no one interfered.

But, when Torm goes to prevent someone from being put into the wall, we are told that the reason he can't prevent it is because evil gods like Cyric will interfere and prevent such a good and noble act from happening? Why?

It's a court hearing. It's not as if Cyric just marched up the hall of judgement and started a brawl with Torm. Torm appeared, made a legal claim and Cyric showed up with a better counter claim.

IIRC the only unsual thing was that two deities showed up to state their cases, the court was lined by representatives and messangers of various deities waiting to speak up on their patrons behalf whenever they saw the chance to claim one of the souls to be judged for their master.

So maybe Ilmater's exarch is the one that tries to speak up every single time when a soul is judged to be faithless and is routinely denied every single time.

What's the deity of mercy going to do? Start a war that would set her against the Kelemvor plus all neutral deities wanting to back the status quo plus all evil deities just wanting to strike against the deity of mercy?

 

[Hussar]

I can see three arguments for the Wall of the Faithless. ((Note, I'm not sure I ascribe to any of them, but, these are the three that I see))

1. Meta-setting.

Forgotten Realms is a setting where the gods are close by, very active and integral to the setting. Gods, their servants and followers drive a LOT of the material for FR. Which means that in FR, faith and religion is important. The Wall is effectively the DM telling the players, "Look, religion MATTERS in this setting, so, get with the program, choose a patron deity and let's get playing!"

The Wall doesn't have to really make sense in setting since its purpose is largely a meta way to enforce "Every character needs a patron deity in this setting." Since the PC's all have patron deities (presuming they get with the program), it's a win.

2. In-Setting Justification

Lots of real world religions don't tolerate atheism. The punishment for atheism is generally pretty bad according to many real world religions. In a setting where the gods are active, easily seen and pretty much everywhere, the notion that they would be merciful to those who are willfully defying their very existence is tough to swallow. Why would any FR deity take in those that actively deny their divinity?

3. Rule of Cool

The notion that every soul, even those that deny the existence of the gods, has a place is a kind of neat idea. That those who actively deny the existence of the gods get stuffed in a wall to slowly dissolve seems a fairly apt resolution.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't know, why ask me? Ao became more of a dick over the millenia maybe?

_
glass.

I agree, no one has an answer, but I feel like that really highlights the narrative problem. It makes no sense, and the only things we can imagine to fill in are... poor writing doubled down.

I think this is why the Wall is never going to be more than a huge narrative mistake, because it simply breaks too much.
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Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Maybe the Goddess of Mercy found and threw the most powerful mortals she could get at the problem, and Myrkul squished them like bugs, such that their story is not worth the column-inches to print it. Only the winners get their story told, you know.

Well, we do have a story about mortal heroes fighting Myrkul over the Wall. The Betrayer's Crusade. And they were crushed flat. And we know exactly why it happened and who led it. A former Chosen of Myrkul's who wanted to free his Wife.

And that is the only recorded instance of anyone fighting to tear down the wall.

And sure, we can say that maybe a Divine War to free souls, pitting two Gods against each other and placing them in permanent conflict wasn't important enough to write. But, considering the amount of time the Wall has existed in the rulebooks, you would think it might be at least hinted at.

And to remind you, a lack of evidence can very well mean that something did not happen. Especially when it is something that would have been momentous enough to be recorded or talked about. After all, this is DnD, we don't only get the stories of the winners, we also get the stories of the losers, since they tend to make good plot hooks.

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It's a court hearing. It's not as if Cyric just marched up the hall of judgement and started a brawl with Torm. Torm appeared, made a legal claim and Cyric showed up with a better counter claim.

IIRC the only unsual thing was that two deities showed up to state their cases, the court was lined by representatives and messangers of various deities waiting to speak up on their patrons behalf whenever they saw the chance to claim one of the souls to be judged for their master.

So maybe Ilmater's exarch is the one that tries to speak up every single time when a soul is judged to be faithless and is routinely denied every single time.

What's the deity of mercy going to do? Start a war that would set her against the Kelemvor plus all neutral deities wanting to back the status quo plus all evil deities just wanting to strike against the deity of mercy?

You are jumping to the end. I didn't say she went to war with Kelemvor to stop the status quo. I'm asking why she didn't go to war with Myrkul to preserve the status quo.

Again, the Wall of the Faithless was not the status quo. 31,000 years into the existence of the world, Myrkul decided to create it. And no neutral deity stepped forward to defend the status quo. No Good Deity stepped forward to prevent ths great act of evil. No mortal champions stepped forward to defend anything. Myrkul just did it. And the only one to ever defy him was one of his own champions, who was fighting to rescue his wife.

You want to talk about this as a courtroom, with Kelemvor in charge and defending the status quo, but I want to go back to the laying of the first brick. Before this was established, before this was the norm, why did no one challenge this. If the only reason they don't challenge it now is because it would cause some sort of disruption, why didn't they challenge it before it could cause any disruption?

Why did no one stop Myrkul?

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I can see three arguments for the Wall of the Faithless. ((Note, I'm not sure I ascribe to any of them, but, these are the three that I see))

1. Meta-setting.

Forgotten Realms is a setting where the gods are close by, very active and integral to the setting. Gods, their servants and followers drive a LOT of the material for FR. Which means that in FR, faith and religion is important. The Wall is effectively the DM telling the players, "Look, religion MATTERS in this setting, so, get with the program, choose a patron deity and let's get playing!"

The Wall doesn't have to really make sense in setting since its purpose is largely a meta way to enforce "Every character needs a patron deity in this setting." Since the PC's all have patron deities (presuming they get with the program), it's a win.

2. In-Setting Justification

Lots of real world religions don't tolerate atheism. The punishment for atheism is generally pretty bad according to many real world religions. In a setting where the gods are active, easily seen and pretty much everywhere, the notion that they would be merciful to those who are willfully defying their very existence is tough to swallow. Why would any FR deity take in those that actively deny their divinity?

3. Rule of Cool

The notion that every soul, even those that deny the existence of the gods, has a place is a kind of neat idea. That those who actively deny the existence of the gods get stuffed in a wall to slowly dissolve seems a fairly apt resolution.

1 is the only one that I think fits, because it acknowledges that the Wall doesn't have to make sense, the entire point is to send a message that "gods are important here" in a very hamfisted manner.

 

[Iry]

I consider the Wall to be an intentional flaw. A plot point just waiting for the players (high level ones, presumably) to take action and change the status quo. The players ARE the ones the gods of good choose to finally do something about the wall. A story full of action, moral discussion, and even courtroom intrigue as gods argue their case with the players standing equal to the gods in their testimony and debate. Etc.

Of course, if Myrkul made the wall at the behest of AO (we don't actually know) then it might be an integral part of the balance. And it's destruction would have to be replaced with something equally bad. Or... maybe the players can advocate for a slightly nicer ending, in exchange for concessions to the gods of evil in other areas.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's not permanent soul death either. It's 'non existence', which (as an Atheist) is the precise afterlife you expected.

A real life atheist, sure. The FR afterlife exists regardless of whether the “gods” are just hyper-powered wizards or not.

But even if a character does think the afterlife is fake, you’ve made no point at all, because that doesn’t begin to justify turning them into an unwilling brick as they lose their sentience and then finally become nothing over the course of centuries.

Note that the afterlife, whether with a deity or as a petitioner is not eternal. In the end all souls are merely batteries to power their deity or plane.

You exist for a while as an servant without memory of xour former live and all the while getting slowly purified until you're a true exemplar of your deity/plane.

At that point you're ripe for absorbtion and that's the end of you as an individual.

So, the gods are all evil. Got it.

Only the winners get their story told, you know

This is one of the most egregiously untrue commonly-stated sentiments in the modern western lexicon. It’s “Viking wore horned helmets” level untrue, if not more so.

History books and literature and song and poetry are all full of stories about the people the winners crushed, told from the perspective of people outside either direct “side”, as often as not. Hell, conquering cultures frequently keep records that tell the terribly unflattering tale of what they did whilst conquering, and fail to stop historians and storytellers from using those records later.

 

[Mirtek]

So, the gods are all evil. Got it.

Also the very planes themselves. Celestia will eventually "eat you" just as Tyr would