D&D 5E (2014) It's official, WOTC hates Rangers (Tasha's version of Favored Foe is GARBAGE)

Lanefan · Nov 7, 2020

doctorbadwolf said:
The ranger ain't exactly bad at hitting things with weapons.

If the means of application is by weapon, which makes it in effect just the Rangers' form of poison. I was thinking of herbs that had to be ingested.

Helldritch · Nov 7, 2020

The big problem with the exploration pillar in the wilderness is that it can be soooo easily bypassed. The various traveling spells make it so that a group, once a certain level is attained, can simply teleport right on the door step of the adventure area. A simple divination/scrying and voilà ! You have seen where you want to be so just teleport and the exploration pillar eats its shorts. By making the exploration pillar such a big deal in the ranger, they have cut a lot that could have helped the ranger in the other pillars.

What should have been proficiency in three skills became a much more codified thing that helps in the first two tiers but becomes almost irrelevant (if not downright useless) in the last two tiers. I know that even with all my years of experience, it is hard to actually keep the exploration feature of the ranger relevant up to 20th level. I can often manage it but at some points, some shenanigans become hard to justify and they also gimp the power of the casters that have the traveling spells that are normally used. Be they clerics or arcane caster, having a part of your spell selection off once in a while is acceptable. But if it happens too often, it becomes an irritation that can quickly become badwrongfun.

The goal is using those shenanigans sparingly but in doing so, the ranger is having his main use on the backburner... It is all a matter of pacing and dosage.

But one thing I often tell young DMs is that you can't track while flying. A fleeing villain is fun to track and make your ranger happy. And if the group has no rangers and no trackers, an escaped villain can always make a nice comeback. With a catch phrase such as:" Had you tracked me, I would not have had the chance to get your heads. " Is good to make rangers useful in the minds of the players.

Minigiant · Nov 7, 2020

Helldritch said:
The big problem with the exploration pillar in the wilderness is that it can be soooo easily bypassed. The various traveling spells make it so that a group, once a certain level is attained, can simply teleport right on the door step of the adventure area. A simple divination/scrying and voilà ! You have seen where you want to be so just teleport and the exploration pillar eats its shorts. By making the exploration pillar such a big deal in the ranger, they have cut a lot that could have helped the ranger in the other pillars.

What should have been proficiency in three skills became a much more codified thing that helps in the first two tiers but becomes almost irrelevant (if not downright useless) in the last two tiers. I know that even with all my years of experience, it is hard to actually keep the exploration feature of the ranger relevant up to 20th level. I can often manage it but at some points, some shenanigans become hard to justify and they also gimp the power of the casters that have the traveling spells that are normally used. Be they clerics or arcane caster, having a part of your spell selection off once in a while is acceptable. But if it happens too often, it becomes an irritation that can quickly become badwrongfun.

It's less that it becomes irrelevant as much as the game doesn't provide many examples of wilderness exploration.
Page 302 of the DMG is the start of lists of monsters sorted by environment and CR. In the forest, you fight a orc at level 1, and orge at level 2, a werewolf at level 3, a troll at level 5, an oni at level /, a young dragon at level 10.

The exploration challenges in the DMG are few. Gathering food in the forest is not a challenge for anyone over level 2. You 1d6 dys of food and water if you succeed foraging. You have to fail 4 checks in a row with 10 Wisdom to starve in a forest. It's super easy. And you can buy food and bring it with you.
Basic forgaing, tracking, and navigation are super easy. A DM has to add complications to make them even challenges. That is without dealing with other exploration challenges like poisons, diseases, natural disasters, violent weather, fey trickery, shadow/necrotic sinks, dome/devil corruption, elemental enhancements, monster liars, primal fouling, etc.

The easy way to do wilderness exploration is to load the wilds with fey that mess with you. Then you can just do anything when the party strays of the roads too far. That's what my DM does. Thordamn tricksy fairiy princesses and their Alice in Wonderland nonsense.

doctorbadwolf · Nov 7, 2020

Doesn’t the new book have a whole section/chapter on fantastical environments?

I know Sly Flourish has done a lot of material on the subject as well, and I think Kobold Press has, as well.

Helldritch · Nov 7, 2020

@Minigiant
You are right. But a lot of the ranger's problem is also that a lot of DMs do not approach the wilderness in the same manner as they do with a dungeon.

A lot if DMs leave the wilderness encounters to random rolls and full improvisation, going with the feel of the moment. And this is doing a great disservice to the ranger. I usually plan the trek ahead of time by rolling encounters before the actual session. I usually know where the character will start their journey and how long it should take to get to their destination. I roll the required number of random encounters and re-arrange them to fit a 6-8 encounter pattern for the journey if possible.

If some encounters can be ignored because the ranger is in his favourite terrain, so be it. But I make sure that it is the ranger's decision to bypass it. If they players know that an encounter is avoided because a ranger is with them, it reinforce the usefulness of the ranger. Especially if the encounter could have been a tough one.

If possible, I'll try to incorporate the Players' decisions into the following encounters so that their decisions will appear to have an actual impact on the journey. I already gave an example of the kind of things I do in an other thread (or was it on this one?).

Anyway, improvisation is a great skill any DMs should have. But prep is even more useful. It ensures that each character will shine.

Asisreo · Nov 7, 2020

Helldritch said:
The big problem with the exploration pillar in the wilderness is that it can be soooo easily bypassed.

Exploration can never be bypassed. There is no such thing as "bypassing exploration."

When players gain access to teleport spells and magic items, they've gained new ways to interact with the world around them. If a player wants to go from point A to point B, there's usually only a couple ways to do so at level 1. Usually swimming or taking a vehicle. At high levels, they can now do so with their magical powers. They can still decide to preserve their magic or walk to not miss anything, but they can also opt to teleport to their destination.

Teleportation is unreliable anyways. Even if you used scrying to visually see your destination, the Teleport spell still has a roughly 25% chance to screw you over. They try to teleport to their destination, they're taking a risk even if no shenanigans are played on the DM's part.

Lord Twig · Nov 7, 2020

I don't have a ton of time to read a long thread like this, but I just really need to get this out.

I watched the interview that Jeremy Crawford had taking about Tasha's Cauldron and the guy interviewing him (I assume just another employee at WotC) brought up the alternate ranger feature that allowed them to cast Hunter's Mark without concentration. Then he started giggling with glee that he was going to play a Warlock and dip Ranger, or play a Ranger and take the Magic Initiate feat, then choose Warlock and get the Hex spell. Then he was going to stack the two spells and do an extra 2d6 on every attack.

"Hee hee hee!" he giggled with unbridled glee (watch the video, I am not exaggerating). And I thought, "What a complete moron!"

Of course it was going to be nerfed now. Jeremy immediately said, "Well, we haven't balanced it with multiclassing in mind yet." Because, of course they didn't. It was obvious. And as soon as it occurred to you to stack those two spells, it should immediately occur to you that it would be unbalanced. I literally knew it the second he said it. That's how obvious this was. How is this guy working for a game company and he didn't realize that?

Then of course there was the sadly predictable overreaction. Making it require concentration again would have fixed it right there. Or they could have just made an ability that was limited it to only one attack per round which would be stackable with Hunter's Mark and actually giving them a much needed boost. But no, they did both, and ensured that the Ranger would once again be subpar. He once again has an ability that will rarely see use once he has access to the far superior Hunter's Mark spell. (Which the already top tier Vengeance Paladin gets FOR FREE and can stack with Divine Smite, which apparently is not a problem, because why not make sure there is absolutely nothing special for the Ranger? And stacks with his +1d8 to every attack at 11th level. And gets his Cha bonus to help his concentration on at 6th level. But I'm not bitter.)

[/rant]

Helldritch · Nov 7, 2020

Asisreo said:
Exploration can never be bypassed. There is no such thing as "bypassing exploration."

When players gain access to teleport spells and magic items, they've gained new ways to interact with the world around them. If a player wants to go from point A to point B, there's usually only a couple ways to do so at level 1. Usually swimming or taking a vehicle. At high levels, they can now do so with their magical powers. They can still decide to preserve their magic or walk to not miss anything, but they can also opt to teleport to their destination.

Teleportation is unreliable anyways. Even if you used scrying to visually see your destination, the Teleport spell still has a roughly 25% chance to screw you over. They try to teleport to their destination, they're taking a risk even if no shenanigans are played on the DM's part.

Say that to my players. Exploration can easily be bypassed. Either by flying, teleporting or even plane hopping. The higher you are, the easier it has always been, is and always will be.

You are litterally saying the opposite of almost everyone here. Experience may differ greatly but not that much.

And even if they take a risk it is not that big of a deal. With the appropriate scrying/divination and info gathering, even that risk will be lessened. Anyways, tables differ...