D&D 5E (2014) Getting rid of bad skill proficiencies

[Tomice]

Sorry, double post!

 

[Tomice]

Ever since I saw the merging of Thieves Tools proficiency with Sleight of Hand in Baldurs Gate 3, I've thought a lot about skills in 5e, their inconsistencies, and their wildly varying usefulness.
Here are some thoughts about problematic skills and how to improve their usefulness and logic.

But first, here's a tier list of skills I've taken from a survey (which can be argued about, the details aren't that important, it's just meant as a short overview):

Spoiler

S: Perception
A: Persuasion, Stealth
B: Athletics, Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Deception
C: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, History, Survival, Intimidation
D: Nature, Religion
F: Medicine, Animal Handling, Performance

Here are my thoughts/suggestions:

• Medicine only serves one tangible purpose (stabilizing someone "empty-handed" without healing spells and healing kit). I would convert it to a tool proficiency and make it necessary to use a healers kit. This tool proficiency would also cover the secondary function (examining wounds, identifying a disease). Casters with healing spells should also have free proficiency in medical examinations.
• Performance is not even important for bards, so I would drop it. Dancing, juggling and similar stuff should be governed by Acrobatics. Singing should be a musical instrument proficiency. A contest between two musicians should be charisma+instrument proficiency. No need for performance IMHO.
• Animal Handling is very situational. I believe riding should be associated with Acrobatics, while coaches ad carts should be a tool ("land vehicles"). Understanding animals should be tied to Nature.
• Acrobatics would be much more distinct from Athletics if dancing and riding would be added to it's portfolio. It would also be easier to understand for new players (all about balance).
• Survival and Nature are very much overlapping and should be merged. They should be tied to intelligence to make the stat more important.
• History should be renamed society and contain everything regarding the more or less civilized world. Borders, customs, titles, heraldry, laws, rules, where to find services in a large city, ....
• Deception and Intimidation should get wider uses to be competitive with persuasion. Failing an intimidation or deception check shouldn't always result in an angry or even hostile NPC. Instead, Deception should be used for all interactions with criminals, while intimidation should be used to parley with brutes and monsters. Persuasion should not be the best way to interact with angry Hobgoblins, they should be more receptive to tough statements and an intimidating posture. The party face should change depending on who you need to talk to!
• Sleight of Hand and Thieves Tools should be merged. TT are by far the most useful tool, making them a skill would be more consistent. Also, SoH is very weak now that it's not associated with traps and locks.

To sum it up, this would be my suggestion for a revised skill system:
STR - Athlectics
DEX - Acrobatics
DEX - Stealth
DEX - Sleight of Hand = Thieves Tools
INT - Society (History)
INT - Investigation
INT - Nature = Survival
INT - Arcana
INT - Religion
WIS - Perception
WIS - Insight
CHA - Persuasion
CHA - Deception
CHA - Intimidation

Healers kit would be a new tool proficiency.
Thieves tools and Sleight of Hand would be a skill primarily, but also a tool under certain circumstances (e.g. as spellcasting focus for an Artificer).

EDIT: As a side effect, the distinction between INT and WIS would be clearer - one is more about learned knowledge, the other is more about wits and instuition.
_____________________________

What are your thoughts? Could this system be used or would it cause problems?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yeah, very much agreed. My approach was to get rid off all tool-proficiencies as well as language proficiencies. All of that if folded to skills. I also merged several skills.

STRENGTH
Athletics

DEXTERITY
Acrobatics
Stealth
Thievery (Contains sleight of hand and the use of thieves tools.)

INTELLIGENCE
Arcana (Now contains areas of religion skill that deal with metaphysics and supernatural, instead of mere cultural things.)
Craftship (General crafting and tech skill. Replaces tool proficiencies. Specialists can have 'expertise' for specific facets of crafting.)
Investigation
Linguistics (Measures your skill in different languages, the ease you acquire new ones as well as ability to decipher ancient scripts etc.)
Lore (General 'sage' skill. For knowing stuff that doesn't fall in any other category. Now contains some uses of religion skill.)

WISDOM
Insight
Medicine
Perception
Survival (Contains most uses of nature and animal handling skill.)

CHARISMA
Intimidation
Performance (Now contains the use of musical instruments.)
Persuasion (Now contains deception)

 

[Istbor]

I am so sick of Intimidation being only charisma. That bulky dude with the massive club isn't scary because he can give a speech, he's scary because he can knock my brains out and eat a sandwich over my corpse like it was another Tuesday.

 

[Oofta]

I am so sick of Intimidation being only charisma. That bulky dude with the massive club isn't scary because he can give a speech, he's scary because he can knock my brains out and eat a sandwich over my corpse like it was another Tuesday.

It is and has always been up to the DM to allow different ability scores when making skill checks. Maybe it should be called out a bit more, but it's always been an option to use your strength modifier for intimidate.

 

[Istbor]

It is and has always been up to the DM to allow different ability scores when making skill checks. Maybe it should be called out a bit more, but it's always been an option to use your strength modifier for intimidate.

Oh I am aware of that, just many DMs new and veteran still have a strict adherence to RAW and don't like to deviate. A more 'official' call out to a fluid interpretation of intimidate could be made to enforce this.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I am so sick of Intimidation being only charisma. That bulky dude with the massive club isn't scary because he can give a speech, he's scary because he can knock my brains out and eat a sandwich over my corpse like it was another Tuesday.

And the caster juggling fireballs can incinerate you and the rogue with a crooked smile can slit your throat in seconds. That you can demonstrate superior lethality might affect the DC, but charismatic people are still better at making those they threaten to do what they want.

 

[Oofta]

Oh I am aware of that, just many DMs new and veteran still have a strict adherence to RAW and don't like to deviate. A more 'official' call out to a fluid interpretation of intimidate could be made to enforce this.

It is "RAW" to substitute a different ability. You may just have to point it out to new DMs.

 

[Istbor]

It is "RAW" to substitute a different ability. You may just have to point it out to new DMs.

I'll have to review. It has been so long since I cracked open that part of the book. I have been doing it since always so I never bothered to look. That doesn't really explain vets though. Either way, thanks.

 

[Retreater]

Maybe they're all bad skills? Just use the ability score? Or don't roll at all if it's not necessary?