D&D General Whom has had a greater impact on D&D? Gygax or Greenwood?

[Mirtek]

3e was the era of Eberron

Was it? Or was it just WotC wishing it would be? They tried to make it the shiny new star, but even so during 3e FR got more supplements and more novels than Eberron (so they were kind of sabotaging themselves?)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Snarf, quite simply, I didn't want you to "out yell" Shardstone, in your attempts to educate him. The perspective of someone other than a decades long veteran of the game, is a perspective, I would like to see included in this conversation, if possible.
.

Fascinating.

In order to do that, you ignored what I wrote, rubbished my opinion (which is considered, if not necessarily correct) and called me a vulgarity.

I hope you appreciate that I am not convinced, given that post and your other posts in this thread (including the one where you were incorrectly and impolitely tone-policing Mistwell for the sin of, apparently, being old and disagreeing with you).

I am fairly certain that this post (the end of the conversation) was not dismissive or “shouting down” and did not require your intervention.

Whom has had a greater impact on D&D? Gygax or Greenwood?
Whom has had a greater impact on D&D? Gygax or Greenwood?

 

[werecorpse]

From what I know I would put the Gygax Arneson in a class of their own (at the top) with the people like Moldvay, Holmes (the Basic and 1e rules people) just below them. Then I would put the 3e rules people like Cook, Tweet, Williams then the 5e authors then 2e and maybe 4e who while it wasn’t my jam I’m sure the 5e authors would say they drew some stuff from it.

after this comes setting authors and Gygax gets the gong for the open world kitchen sink fantasy setting, then Hickman and Weis for the strong storyline setting and all others come after them.

I am not sure how much influence Greenwood had as FR really seems just like a version of the kitchen sink setting that Greyhawk is but it was pushed to the fore during the big days of the mid to late 80’s due to internal TSR politics. Plus when TSR bought it they seemed to do so in a way that let them put any number of creative authors ideas into the realms so it hard to know which parts of the realms pastiche are Greenwood and which are other authors (though I admit I haven’t delved into this issue as I don’t really care - it is now what it is)

 

[Guest User]

I hope you appreciate that I am not convinced

That is fair.....I will point out that this Nom du Plume is a newer one for me, as the prior handle I used was connected to an email account that was hacked. In the past, I, (at least), felt we got alone well. Chuck Klosterman fans tend to stick together.

I only ask for the opportunity to hopeful improve your opinion, which of course you are free to decline.

Mistwell and I, are probably around the same age. In NFL terms, it sure read like he was starting to "celebrate in the end zone" by stating something to the effect of this being the "most lopsided poll in Enworld history".

I would like this thread to be inclusive, civil, and also on topic.
To that end, Snarf Zagyg, please feel free to PM, regarding further concerns or to express your doubts or chastisement....putting those concerns in thread will only lead to a thread derailment.

 

[see]

Was it though? Depending on who you believe, Arneson was just as fundamental to the game. Gygax had few organizational skills and the game changed constantly and was largely improvised. His rules were haphazard and contradictory at times. While very creative, I don't know that TSR would have gotten off the ground without the help of others. Little mention is ever made of the playtesters and people who actually made the game work.

Which is not to minimize his work in any way, he was important to the process. But would RPGs have happened without him? Who knows. It's like how we give Edison credit for creating the lightbulb. He didn't ... he did set up a lab and hired smart people who helped him improve the lightbulb.

Yeah, see, you're making my argument for me.

I said that "In fact, a comparison of Gygax to Ford is quite apt, since while there are a lot of people who could be credited with inventing the RPG, it was clearly Gygax who made it a mass phenomenon."

My point being that the key role of Gygax was not in the invention of D&D, but in the publishing, just as the key role of [Ford/Edison/Marc Andreessen] was not in inventing the [automobile/light bulb/web browser], but in bringing it to the masses.

I think it's quite possible we'd have a different foundational RPG if it wasn't for Gygax, he was just the guy who got the spotlight.

Well, yes, exactly. Who could possibly have had "a greater impact on D&D" than the person responsible for it being the foundational RPG? Every other influence on D&D ever is entirely secondary to that impact.

With the result that the only actual competitors for Gygax for "impact on D&D" would be Don Kaye or Brian Blume.

 

[Maxperson]

Mistwell and I, are probably around the same age. In NFL terms, it sure read like he was starting to "celebrate in the end zone" by stating something to the effect of this being the "most lopsided poll in Enworld history".

I'm fairly certain that Morrus's "Have you ever DMed?" poll is the most lopsided in ENworld history.

 

[ph0rk]

I’d put Charlie Stross over Greenwood.

Stross contributed stuff I actually use and care about.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm fairly certain that Morrus's "Have you ever DMed?" poll is the most lopsided in ENworld history.

Yeah, what'd that one finish at - about 230-1 or something?

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, what'd that one finish at - about 230-1 or something?

Yep! There's always one in the bunch.

 

[Marandahir]

Greenwood is still casting his influence spell over D&D. As are other key setting creators, like Keith Baker. They will always be the hearts of their settings, and it's clear that Forgotten Realms, not Greyhawk, is the fandom's classic and favourite fantasy kitchen sink setting.

But that doesn't matter.

As monumental as those two above are, they'll never catch up to the influence Gygax and Arneson had on the game, since the latter two CREATED the game whole-scale. They created the tropes of the Fighter, the Wizard, the Cleric, the Rogue. They created the tropes of the Paladin and the Druid. They created the classic monsters, the classic adventures, the classic items. There is no point in Dungeons & Dragons where someone was, is, or will be more influential on the game than Gygax and Arneson. If there ever would be, the game would no longer be the game.

Gygax and Arneson made this game as separate from miniatures wargaming and pioneered the genre. There are other fantasy RPGs, but they aren't D&D. Gygax and Arneson CREATED D&D, and all the elements that make D&D D&D and not something else.

There will be a time when D&D replaces or changes most of what it has as the game evolves. But the even then, as long as it is D&D, Gygax and Arneson's respective shadows will loom over the game.