D&D General Whom has had a greater impact on D&D? Gygax or Greenwood?

[Umbran]

You also are being a bit of an a******

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[DnD Warlord]

Gary and his crew, then the 2e 3e and 4e and 5e creators all over greenwood.

 

[DnD Warlord]

Oh man, I'm sorry, this is going to sound rude, but I really don't care. I don't know who Melf is. To me, Tasha and Mrdenkainen are NPCs with really weird snippets of lore throughout their books.

I know Gygax and Greyhawk set all this up but man, that was 40 years ago, and the game is radically different now. Yes, Gygax was influencial, but his influence isn't so much that it could save D&D during the 4E years, now was it?

50 years not 40 years

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Greenwood is still casting his influence spell over D&D. As are other key setting creators, like Keith Baker. They will always be the hearts of their settings, and it's clear that Forgotten Realms, not Greyhawk, is the fandom's classic and favourite fantasy kitchen sink setting.

But that doesn't matter.

As monumental as those two above are, they'll never catch up to the influence Gygax and Arneson had on the game, since the latter two CREATED the game whole-scale. They created the tropes of the Fighter, the Wizard, the Cleric, the Rogue. They created the tropes of the Paladin and the Druid. They created the classic monsters, the classic adventures, the classic items. There is no point in Dungeons & Dragons where someone was, is, or will be more influential on the game than Gygax and Arneson. If there ever would be, the game would no longer be the game.

Gygax and Arneson made this game as separate from miniatures wargaming and pioneered the genre. There are other fantasy RPGs, but they aren't D&D. Gygax and Arneson CREATED D&D, and all the elements that make D&D D&D and not something else.

There will be a time when D&D replaces or changes most of what it has as the game evolves. But the even then, as long as it is D&D, Gygax and Arneson's respective shadows will loom over the game.

This.

As much as a fantastic creator Greenwood is, D&D would not exist (at least under its current name and form) without Gygax and Armeson. I'm sure Greenwood would have published his world and novels without D&D, but without Greenwood, D&D can still plow on. I'm not sure the same can be said for a D&D where Gygax did not exist.

 

[Maxperson]

50 years not 40 years

45 years, not 50

The game wasn't even a twinkle in Gygax's eye in 1970. Greyhawk appeared for Chainmail in 1975 and appeared as a 1e supplement in 1980, which is probably where @Shardstone is getting 40 years from.

 

[Guest User]

I'm sure Greenwood would have published his world and novels without D&D, but without Greenwood, D&D can still plow on. I'm not sure the same can be said for a D&D where Gygax did not exist.

I think there is a distinction to be made between Critical Importance and Greatest Impact.

Oxygen is of Critical Importance to a significant portion of life on this planet.
The KT Asteroid event made the Greatest Impact to mammalian evolution.

Gary Gygax is oxygen. Somebody else..is the KT Asteroid.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think there is a distinction to be made between Critical Importance and Greatest Impact.

Oxygen is of Critical Importance to a significant portion of life on this planet.
The KT Asteroid event made the Greatest Impact to mammalian evolution.

Gary Gygax is oxygen. Somebody else..is the KT Asteroid.

I disagree. There hasn't been enough time for anything like the KT Asteroid--we're still barely into the Cambrian period as far as tabletop games are concerned--and the things closest to it don't include the Forgotten Realms as a setting. Like I said before, if we're talking about the evolution of the game:

• Greyhawk was the implied setting up until 4e, which created its own setting--it's only been with 5e, and thus the past 6 years, that FR has been the default setting of D&D. It's hard to argue that Greyhawk's influence is that far away when a mere fifteen years ago its gods were still the ones listed in the official PHB.
• FR hasn't been a particular driver of rules content or its evolution, it's been a driver of novel content and NPCs. Many of whom are roundly disliked by active players because they cause such difficulties for writing adventures set in that world. Sure, they make popular novel characters, but setting-wise? Not so much.
• Though direct reprints of old adventures are not common, translations of old adventures into new formats (some of them re-skinning things to shove them into FR) continue to come from Gygax's work. Every edition has featured key Gygaxian plotlines, like the Temple of Elemental Evil, brought into current rules.
• The OSR movement is still going strong and had a huge influence on the playtest period of 5th edition. You can't do OSR without recognizing the debt owed to Gygax and his personal style of running the game. The whole "rulings not rules" concept is straight out of Gygax's playbook.
• The Great Wheel cosmology has become the default, and it is absolutely "Gygaxian Naturalism" to a T. There were alternative cosmologies, but they were either completely supplanted (3e's unexplained World Tree) or sutured into the "new" Great Wheel (4e's World Axis with its Feywild and Shadowfell etc.)

To a very real and demonstrable extent, Gygax remains a significant influence on the rules, playstyle, and worldbuilding of D&D. Greenwood has had a significant aesthetic influence, and his "big NPCs, great heroics, and high fantasy" style has certainly become much more popular than Gygax's "Knaves & Kobolds" style of gritty murder-hole heistery evolving into feudal lords and wizard-tower-owners. But I'd argue that that's much more because most people want to emulate their favorite fantasy fiction (which tends to be high fantasy today, far more like Tolkien, le Guin, and Lewis, rather than the Moorcock, Burroughs, and Howard that were such big influences on Gygax). We have far more exposure to LotR and Narnia than to Conan the Barbarian--and that hugely affects the gaming narrative.

You actually see a surprisingly similar trend in the video gaming space. Many of the early RPG-like and especially MMORPG games were much more brutal, hard-nosed experiences where bad stuff could just HAPPEN to you, with little guidance, lots of scrabbling for resources or doing incredibly obscure things to advance, and little in the way of story outside of the loot players acquired or the dungeons they'd conquered. Games like Ultima Online and EverQuest took TONS of lessons from early-edition D&D, and it shows in their user experience: dropping equipment on death, losing XP, zones with sharp changes in monster difficulty for the sake of "naturalism," etc.

Then World of Warcraft came along. A little more flamboyant, far more story-heavy. And in its wake, that's what MMOs have become; people expect a main scenario quest, some amount of voice acting, at least a token effort at over-arching ideas beyond just "kill monsters get loot." Games like Final Fantasy XIV have been roundly praised for their excellent storytelling and acting. "Adventurer" in the video-game sphere has largely shifted away from gritty mercenaries overcoming self-chosen challenges, and directly to "big damn heroes saving the day and getting some sweet gear to boot." And the rise of games like Dark Souls was, at least in part, a desire to return to both the gritty self-chosen-challenge playstyle, as well as the brutal difficulty experience that many remember from yesteryear.

To place all credit for the "hero-ization" and high-fantasy lean of modern D&D play at Greenwood's feet is...extremely generous. To further deny Gygax credit for the ways he continues to influence the game despite not even owning the brand for 20 years (and, well, his passing in 2008) is nothing short of special pleading.

Does Greenwood matter for how we play D&D today? Yeah, I'd call that pretty much inarguable. Has Greenwood's work defined more of the way we play today than Gygax's work? No, I don't really think so. Maybe in another 10 years, when you have a generation of fully-adult gamers who have never known anything but Forgotten Realms? Even then I'd call BS simply because of the continuing influence of the OSR movement.

 

[Mannahnin]

• Greyhawk was the implied setting up until 4e, which created its own setting--it's only been with 5e, and thus the past 6 years, that FR has been the default setting of D&D. It's hard to argue that Greyhawk's influence is that far away when a mere fifteen years ago its gods were still the ones listed in the official PHB.
• FR hasn't been a particular driver of rules content or its evolution, it's been a driver of novel content and NPCs. Many of whom are roundly disliked by active players because they cause such difficulties for writing adventures set in that world. Sure, they make popular novel characters, but setting-wise? Not so much.

While I agree with most of your (excellent) post, I will quibble with a detail here.

FR was the flagship setting for 2nd Edition, and thus the "default" world from about 1989 until the late 90s, and remained popular with a LOT of players after that, even though 3E brought us back to Greyhawk.

I think this started around 1987 (in 1st Ed) with the original grey box FRCS set, followed by the rapid publication of popular novels like Bob Salvatore's Drizz't books. TSR really put a ton of focus into FR as the replacement for Greyhawk in the (still relatively recent) wake of Gary's ouster from the company, and in pushing TSR's novel publishing, which still substantially featured Dragonlance and other settings, but as I recall gave FR novels a great deal of prominence.

While the 2nd ed PH & DMG did not include any setting-specific deities or similar details, Dragon magazine, the novels, the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover supplement (with its incredibly popular Specialty Priests Cleric variants), and modules at the time really focused heavily on FR, though TSR also published a number of other settings, among which Greyhawk was sadly relegated into a secondary or tertiary player during that period. Rules content like the Complete Book of Elves presenting FR Bladesinging, or The Drow of the Underdark also put more emphasis on FR concepts.

FR remained highly popular through the 3E and 4E periods, being (IIRC) one of only two (?) settings to get its own hardcover during 4E, along with Dark Sun.

I agree with at least 90% of your post, but do I think you're giving FR short shrift.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

While I agree with most of your (excellent) post, I will quibble with a detail here.

FR was the flagship setting for 2nd Edition, and thus the "default" world from about 1989 until the late 90s, and remained popular with a LOT of players after that, even though 3E brought us back to Greyhawk.

I think this started around 1987 (in 1st Ed) with the original grey box FRCS set, followed by the rapid publication of popular novels like Bob Salvatore's Drizz't books. TSR really put a ton of focus into FR as the replacement for Greyhawk in the (still relatively recent) wake of Gary's ouster from the company, and in pushing TSR's novel publishing, which still substantially featured Dragonlance and other settings, but as I recall gave FR novels a great deal of prominence.

While the 2nd ed PH & DMG did not include any setting-specific deities or similar details, Dragon magazine, the novels, the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover supplement (with its incredibly popular Specialty Priests Cleric variants), and modules at the time really focused heavily on FR, though TSR also published a number of other settings, among which Greyhawk was sadly relegated into a secondary or tertiary player during that period. Rules content like the Complete Book of Elves presenting FR Bladesinging, or The Drow of the Underdark also put more emphasis on FR concepts.

FR remained highly popular through the 3E and 4E periods, being (IIRC) one of only two (?) settings to get its own hardcover during 4E, along with Dark Sun.

I agree with at least 90% of your post, but do I think you're giving FR short shrift.

Point conceded. I'm not very well-versed on 2e, so I appreciate the correction.

 

[TheSword]

3e was the era of Eberron and the Adventure League used Living Greyhawk. The official setting of 4e was Nentir Vale and only 2 published adventures took place in FR.

The OP should have been worded differently if the author wanted a different result.

I suspect Greyhawk may be one of the 3 classic settings that will get reedited this year. After the excellent Saltmarsh it would be fitting that Gygax's setting gets more attention.

(Tom Moldvay should also be in the top positions. His rewrite of the Holmes basic set was very important in communicating better how the game should be played.)

Eberron had 20 books released, several were fairly small soft books with a couple of dozen pages.

Forgotten Realms had 29 books released. Including several hardback modules.

I would FR was the campaign of 3e in the grand scheme of things (as much as I love Eberron)