D&D General Whom has had a greater impact on D&D? Gygax or Greenwood?

[Helldritch]

Gygax all the way. There is no comparisons that are possible.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Oh man, I'm sorry, this is going to sound rude, but I really don't care. I don't know who Melf is. To me, Tasha and Mrdenkainen are NPCs with really weird snippets of lore throughout their books.

I know Gygax and Greyhawk set all this up but man, that was 40 years ago, and the game is radically different now. Yes, Gygax was influencial, but his influence isn't so much that it could save D&D during the 4E years, now was it?

You don’t sound rude; just ignorant of what you discussing. It would be similar to someone saying, “What’s the big deal about Shakespeare? He’s not on YouTube.”

That’s okay. You don’t have to care about how something came about to enjoy it.

 

[Shardstone]

You don’t sound rude; just ignorant of what you discussing. It would be similar to someone saying, “What’s the big deal about Shakespeare? He’s not on YouTube.”

That’s okay. You don’t have to care about how something came about to enjoy it.

You're really painting me with an unfair brush, but I guess, once again, my lack of detail in my posts is why I'm being painted like that.

I do care about Gygax and his legacy. But Shakespeare, while influential too, isn't what keeps modern literature alive. More influential artists appear over time who, maybe not have the same original impact, but have a more important impact, because it keeps whatever medium or artform is alive.

But since you've already called me ignorant and want to act like I only care about shallow things, I don't see this conversation going anywhere positive from here on out.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You're really painting me with an unfair brush, but I guess, once again, my lack of detail in my posts is why I'm being painted like that.

I do care about Gygax and his legacy. But Shakespeare, while influential too, isn't what keeps modern literature alive. More influential artists appear over time who, maybe not have the same original impact, but have a more important impact, because it keeps whatever medium or artform is alive.

But since you've already called me ignorant and want to act like I only care about shallow things, I don't see this conversation going anywhere positive from here on out.

I listed numerous examples of things that we continue to use today, and your reaction was, roughly, “I don’t care about Tasha. Just a stupid NPC.”

Great. That doesn’t account for the fact that D&D is largely the same in so many ways from what Gygax (and others) created, culminating in AD&D.

Over the past almost five decades, there have been many people like Mercer and Mearls. People that have popularized the game. People that have been responsible for different editions, or for modernizing aspects of it. People that have created campaign settings.

But no one else created (or approved, or hired the people that created) almost all of the vocabulary of the game, and a good amount the basic lore, that continues to be used today.

 

[Shardstone]

I listed numerous examples of things that we continue to use today, and your reaction was, roughly, “I don’t care about Tasha. Just a stupid NPC.”

Great. That doesn’t account for the fact that D&D is largely the same in so many ways from what Gygax (and others) created, culminating in AD&D.

Over the past almost five decades, there have been many people like Mercer and Mearls. People that have popularized the game. People that have been responsible for different editions, or for modernizing aspects of it. People that have created campaign settings.

But no one else created (or approved, or hired the people that created) almost all of the vocabulary of the game, and a good amount the basic lore, that continues to be used today.

Hmmmm.

That's a fair point.

Gygax did make the baseline foundation. And Arneson. And the other people who worked on AD&D alongside Gygax, since it wasn't just him. And the rest of TSR who made settings that got D&D popular, like the Dragonlance crew. And the Baldur's Gate games were pretty big for D&D too.

I guess its a conversation of, does the creator of the base idea take more credit than the people who really made his idea a big reality?

Dunno.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Hmmmm.

That's a fair point.

Gygax did make the baseline foundation. And Arneson. And the other people who worked on AD&D alongside Gygax, since it wasn't just him. And the rest of TSR who made settings that got D&D popular, like the Dragonlance crew. And the Baldur's Gate games were pretty big for D&D too.

I guess its a conversation of, does the creator of the base idea take more credit than the people who really made his idea a big reality?

Dunno.

On this, it is exceptionally difficult for someone today to understand just how important Gygax was in terms of creating what we think as D&D.

First, I don’t want you to think that I am trying to ascribe some sort of “great man” historical attributes to him. He was not a perfect individual, and his output after 1984 was ... uneven at best.

Then there are three other categories of people to consider when it comes to historical D&D.

1. Arneson. This has been done to death, but briefly he and Gygax are rightly credited with creating the field. But Arneson was really the spark when it came to RPG - the individualistic aspect of it.

2. The original collaborators. From Kask to Kuntz, from Blume to Ward, there was other people the worked with Gygax at the beginning. Even things that are quintessential Gygax, like Greyhawk, had indispensable contributions (Darlene).

3. Everyone else. From the artists that gave early D&D it’s distinctive look, to the employees of TSR, to the people whom Gygax collaborated with (Ranger, Thief).


So why does Gygax, IMO, rightfully get so much credit? Because for ten years, he WAS D&D. He got the game published. He started the company. He made the decisions. He wrote and wrote and wrote, from Dragon Magazine articles to the core three books of AD&D to the most beloved modules of all time - which continue to get reused to this day. He created (or borrowed, or stole) the lingo, the lore, and the monsters that we use today.

If you combined Mearls and Crawford and Mercer and Colville and, heck, Monte Cook into one person .... and had them design a new game in 2010 that we were playing today ... that’s Gygax.

When it comes to the new player - Gygax doesn’t mean much, because he’s dead. He’s not on YouTube. He will never livestream a game on twitch. But every time a player chooses to play a fighter, and rolls a d20 to see if his two-handed sword hits (against the mind flayer’s AC) ... or, heck, rolls a saving throw, or sees a drow, or asks what a sphere of annihilation is ... somewhere Gygax is grinning.

 

[Guest User]

Hit Points, Dice, "Leveling" up from "Green to Blooded to Veteran to Elite" had been around in war gaming culture well, well before Gary and Dave.

So Snarf Zagyg you seem to be ignoring the contributions of those that came before D&D.....You also are being a bit of an naughty word. (We don't need to discuss that further, like I stated before this topic brings out emotional responses)

The concepts that you have ascribed as what makes D&D what it is, have been promulgated more by computer games in popular culture at large then D&D.
This is not saying, that D&D is irrelevant, or that Gary is irrelevant....but you lived through the games past. Others haven't...and taking a somewhat hostile tone to those that have not lived your life...is not going to encourage them to Learn history.

As this presentation by Rodney Thompson and Mike Mearls indicates...5e D&D was designed specifically so that inputs from all of the games past were represented...not just what Gary G wrote.

 

[Lanefan]

I know Gygax and Greyhawk set all this up but man, that was 40 years ago, and the game is radically different now. Yes, Gygax was influencial, but his influence isn't so much that it could save D&D during the 4E years, now was it?

One could in a way argue that his influence did save D&D during the 4e era, in that 4e's move away from his influences might be identified as a reason for its lack of success, and 5e's move back toward his influence might be identified as a factor in its rather rampant success.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Hit Points, Dice, "Leveling" up from "Green to Blooded to Veteran to Elite" had been around in war gaming culture well, well before Gary and Dave.

So Snarf Zagyg you seem to be ignoring the contributions of those that came before D&D.....You also are being a bit of an EXPLETIVE DELETED. (We don't need to discuss that further, like I stated before this topic brings out emotional responses)

The concepts that you have ascribed as what makes D&D what it is, have been promulgated more by computer games in popular culture at large then D&D.
This is not saying, that D&D is irrelevant, or that Gary is irrelevant....but you lived through the games past. Others haven't...and taking a somewhat hostile tone to those that have not lived your life...is not going to encourage them to Learn history.

As this presentation by Rodney Thompson and Mike Mearls indicates...5e D&D was designed specifically so that inputs from all of the games past were represented...not just what Gary G wrote.

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2. You seem to misunderstand what I have been writing. I suggest reviewing it, especially the post directly above what you just wrote. Given the tenor of this post, I do not believe further explanation to you to be helpful.

3. Incorporation of other editions, that themselves incorporated concepts, lore, and terms initially used by Gygax, does not mean that Gygax was not the progenitor of those terms in RPGs.

At this point, it Is entirely unclear what your point is, other than creating further dissension and engaging in unnecessary name calling

 

[Guest User]

At this point, it Is entirely unclear what your point is

Snarf, quite simply, I didn't want you to "out yell" Shardstone, in your attempts to educate him. The perspective of someone other than a decades long veteran of the game, is a perspective, I would like to see included in this conversation, if possible.

I should have trusted, that, (as you usually do), you wouldn't "out yell" another poster.
You have my apology for my lack of faith.

Without Gygax all Greenwood has is a story and a lot less fame.

I agree with this.