I want smaller, leaner core books.

[delericho]

A 64 page softcover cahier that sets forth 90% of the rules does not, on any plane of existence or in any parallel universe or on any alternate Earth in this or any other dimension or using any form of arithmetic that has ever or will ever be devised, equal an MSRP of $49.95. It just doesn't.

Of course not. But then, I wasn't advocating that 64-page booklet as the way forward.

But there's an excluded middle ground there that I think may be worth exploring - does the game really need almost 1,000 pages of core rules? Especially given that significant portions of that are given over to high-level material that almost nobody actually reaches? (Though that latter may be a different discussion - even if the 1,000 pages is kept, there's an argument for pushing the upper levels to supplements and using the space freed for more lower-level options.)

 

[Jd Smith1]

You can write in a concise and entertaining, evocative way. Look at Runehammer. That's what talented people do when they are not paid by the word IMHO. Again, the point is such a ruleset should not be cheaper. Some people may unfortunately still have an impression they are being cheated if they pay the same price for a book half the pages long. That's not my case, though.

I agree. Page count means little to me; it is what's inside, and how well it is organized. And bookmarked.

 

[Aldarc]

I’d suggest RPGs are competing with the same market as hobby boardgames, and the experience new players are expecting - learn rules, sit down at table with friends, play game using those rules - is far closer to boardgames than to reading a novel.

I tend to agree. I don't think that it's a coincidence either that the revitalization of the TTRPG hobby happened alongside the renewed interest in board games. When several of my TTRPG groups were not playing TTRPGs, whether we were between games or wanted a respite, we would often play board games.

You can write in a concise and entertaining, evocative way. Look at Runehammer. That's what talented people do when they are not paid by the word IMHO. Again, the point is such a ruleset should not be cheaper. Some people may unfortunately still have an impression they are being cheated if they pay the same price for a book half the pages long. That's not my case, though.

ICRPG 2e is a well-written core rule book with some clever illustrations. It has 216 pages, but that includes basic rules, a great GM guide, a bestiary, and several sample settings. It definitely demonstrates that buying three 300+ page books shouldn't be necessary for running a full TTRPG game.

 

[TheSword]

Context is king.

Descriptive writing creates context.
Art creates context.
Background creates context.
Examples create context.

If you have pre-conceived ideas about these things you can get by and ignore what is written.

If you are new and don’t have this though, you are left high and dry.

Successful RPGs are designed for as broad a market as they can... if they they want to be successful. Therefore they need to provide context.

 

[Reynard]

Context is king.

Descriptive writing creates context.
Art creates context.
Background creates context.
Examples create context.

If you have pre-conceived ideas about these things you can get by and ignore what is written.

If you are new and don’t have this though, you are left high and dry.

Successful RPGs are designed for as broad a market as they can... if they they want to be successful. Therefore they need to provide context.

None of this demand massive hardcovers. The Red Box set had all of this. If it hadn't half of us wouldn't be here talking about RPGs.

5e could be perfectly playable and well-written and fun to look at in under 100 pages, just as an example.

I think price point creates bloat, just like with video games. Most of the promised 40 or 80 or 160 hours of open world games is busy work to justify a $60 price tag. Likewise, most of the 350 pages of Numenera is filler to justify it's price. Some games don't even hide it with walls of meaningless prose anymore -- I'm looking at you, Alien RPG. And I really like everything about the Alien RPG but that is a 64 page game.

 

[TheSword]

82 pages of the PHB are spells. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Zsong]

Some of the osr games are 64 pages or less like the OP is describing. It’s funny to me because what you are asking for is already out there. It is just some people are determined to not play these games because they insist on playing the d&d name brand. If it doesn’t have the d&d logo they don’t want to play it unless it is licensed and approved by Wotc.

 

[Aldarc]

82 pages of the PHB are spells. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

I assume you didn't ask this without having not first formed your own opinion.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Some games don't even hide it with walls of meaningless prose anymore -- I'm looking at you, Alien RPG. And I really like everything about the Alien RPG but that is a 64 page game.

So true.

 

[Haffrung]

The problem, folks, is that RPG rulebooks don't serve a single, focused purpose.

Concise, clear writing is great... for a reference book. It is great for someone who already knows what they are doing, and who already knows they want to buy the thing.

It is bad for learning, though - you all had really dry textbooks in school that were terrible to read, didn't you? It is also bad as a marketing-object - if the person isn't sure they want to buy that book, a wall of clear, concise, dense text will not get them the idea of what the game book is about without them having to read most of the book before they buy it. For these purposes, you need art, text that's evocative, and such.

So, as long as your RPG book has to do triple duty as a reference work, a teaching work, and a marketing artifact, you're going to have to accept compromises.

There are some people who will read an RPG book cover-to-cover for entertainment, but we're peculiar uber-nerds even by gamer standards. Most people who I've taught to play D&D have never actually read the rules away from the table.

However, most everyone I've played with has had to reference the rules in an RPG book at the table. When you're sat with four other people for an evening of socialization, and you need to look up how your character's Stealth feat will modify her attempt to evade an ogre, the last thing you want is to parse through paragraphs of descriptive text to find what you're looking for.

What happens in reality is that most players do not read RPG books at all, let alone for solitary entertainment purposes. They buy them to reference the bits and pieces of the system they need to know to run their PC, and then they rely on the DM or the alpha player(s) to guide them through every other mechanic. As for the DM and the alpha players, while some do indeed enjoy reading RPG books, most would be happy to have a concise reference to aid them in play - just as boardgamers have with their rules sets.

The final factor in all this is buyers - a much larger market than publishers care to admit publicly, I'd warrant - who don't actively play RPGs, but buy RPG books because they once did, or wish they could, or they find them otherwise interesting. And yes, they probably do want something evocative and entertaining to read. Because reading that book is the only pleasure they're likely to ever get out of the game, and ease of reference in play is irrelevant to them. The question is how much should publishers cater to non or inactive gamers, and how much does that sacrifice ease of use for people who actually play.