Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[Upper_Krust]

Fun fact: in AD&D 2nd Edition's DMGR4 Monster Mythology, Faluzure (or rather, his avatar) had an Armor Class of -16.

The ACs dropped a smidge in 2nd Edition, especially for Dragons.

My character Thrin had an AC lower than -20 and I recall we had an Overgod (Ahriman) with an AC of -40 (although I don't recall ever battling him).

As regards 5E, I don't think it will be a massive problem (for PCs) provided 30 Dex and +3 items are the limit.

 

[cbwjm]

Hi, just curious where you're getting these terms? Mainly, what's a time lord in dnd, was this all homebrew or was there a past epic level book with them all?

Only had a couple deities to compare in 5e. Tiamat was CR 30 as a lesser god, Auril was lower CR but also weakened from the magic she was performing so hard to say what she should have been.

 

[Alzrius]

Hi, just curious where you're getting these terms? Mainly, what's a time lord in dnd, was this all homebrew or was there a past epic level book with them all?

Those are from the 3.5-compatible Immortal's Handbook: Ascension (a companion book to the Epic Bestiary). The book outlines a series of divine strata that eclipse the normal range of demigod -> lesser god -> intermediate god -> greater god in D&D.

Hopefully U_K won't mind if I outline those here, in ascending order:

Proxy (i.e. sub-divine) ranks
Disciple
Prophet

Divine ranks
Hero god
Quasi-god
Demigod
Lesser god
Intermediate god
Greater god

Sidereal (i.e. overgod) ranks
Elder One
Old One
First One

Eternal ranks
Demiurge (stage I)
Demiurge (stage II)
Demiurge (stage III)
Time Lord
High Lord (duad)
High Lord (triad)
High Lord (tetrad, etc.)

The "High Lord" rank is essentially applying the Time Lord template multiple times over (a single instance is technically a "monad" High Lord), and it continues infinitely. U_K has referenced, for example, a High Lord (from his home campaign, I think) called Domedon-Doxomedon, who's an ogdoad (i.e. has the template applied eight times).

Technically there's a rank above this, Supernal, which is occupied by only a single entity: the Supreme Being, who is beyond the capacity of game stats to measure (though not necessarily beyond being challenged). Similarly, the Akashic Records aren't a "rank" per se, but are the tools which a Supreme Being uses to construct/alter/administrate a multiverse.

There are some interesting charts comparing these to various systems and even popular characters over on U_K's old website.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi, just curious where you're getting these terms? Mainly, what's a time lord in dnd, was this all homebrew or was there a past epic level book with them all?

Only had a couple deities to compare in 5e. Tiamat was CR 30 as a lesser god, Auril was lower CR but also weakened from the magic she was performing so hard to say what she should have been.

Howdy cbwjm!

Thanks to Alzrius for explaining Time Lords in context. I picked up the term from an old book occult tome called "Life Forces", that book was written in 1980 so it may have borrowed the term from Doctor Who or perhaps it was just a coincidence.

Was Tiamat only a Lesser God in 5E? I thought she was Intermediate or Greater. That said I don't think I have the book with her detailed in it.

 

[cbwjm]

Howdy cbwjm!

Thanks to Alzrius for explaining Time Lords in context. I picked up the term from an old book occult tome called "Life Forces", that book was written in 1980 so it may have borrowed the term from Doctor Who or perhaps it was just a coincidence.

Was Tiamat only a Lesser God in 5E? I thought she was Intermediate or Greater. That said I don't think I have the book with her detailed in it.

You can find her stats in the rise of Tiamat adventure. She may have been an intermediate deity in previous editions but it seems they've done away with that rank in 5e so now they just have lesser and greater (and overdeity). Removes a bit of the nuance between the gods for the base game, but cool that you're bringing it back in.

 

[Upper_Krust]

You can find her stats in the rise of Tiamat adventure. She may have been an intermediate deity in previous editions but it seems they've done away with that rank in 5e so now they just have lesser and greater (and overdeity). Removes a bit of the nuance between the gods for the base game, but cool that you're bringing it back in.

Hello again cbwjm!

Thanks for that. I think I may have seen her stats briefly online somewhere. I wasn't aware they had done away with Intermediate Gods in 5E. So I can't claim any great insight for bringing them back.

For me the distinction was that 1st Edition Greater Gods were split into Intermediate and Greater. The latter was for Pantheon Heads or near equivalents*. But I know the official rules never operated under those parameters.

*So Odin would be a Greater God while Thor would be an Intermediate God.

 

[aco175]

Can I ask what the point of listing all the gods with a CR is for? Is the point to be able to fight them and take their abilities like in 1e where we had a party be able to kill the whole pantheon and become gods themselves. Is it to fight them on the home plane and destroy their 'avatar' only to have them reappear in their domain. I can see the CR along the lines of what some are listing if the PCs cannot truly kill gods, but would think they should be a lot higher if these are the stats to outright kill them.

 

[Luminous]

Hey all,

work continues on the book (albeit had a really slow week there due to real life stuff, mainly work). But I have been mulling over how beings of each divine status would convert to 5E.

If we parallel the current Deities officially detailed:

Demigods = CR 20-23
Lesser = CR 24-26
Inter = CR 27-29...or up to 30
Greater = CR 30-33...or up to 35

If we continue that scale then:

Elder One = CR 34-36
Old One = CR 37-39
First One = CR 40-43
Demiurge Stage I = CR 44-46
Demiurge Stage II = CR 47-49
Demiurge Stage III = CR 50-53

Time Lord = CR 54-56...?
You could maybe say each additional Universe adds another CR at this point so Domedon-Doxomedon would be CR 61

I'm just wondering whether those CRs seem a bit low for the types of beings we want to represent. Any thoughts? I know there are already unofficial monsters for 5E out there at CR 50 and they are not for Demiurge level beings.

I'm thinking Time Lord should probably convert to CR 100 and then below that will be some type of skewed inverted pyramid.

Could I suggest some changes? The current 5e system isn't all that epic.
Demigods: CR 21-26
Lesser: CR 27-30
Inter: CR 31-35
Greater: CR 36-40 (Or up to 50).

 

[Luminous]

Can I ask what the point of listing all the gods with a CR is for? Is the point to be able to fight them and take their abilities like in 1e where we had a party be able to kill the whole pantheon and become gods themselves. Is it to fight them on the home plane and destroy their 'avatar' only to have them reappear in their domain. I can see the CR along the lines of what some are listing if the PCs cannot truly kill gods, but would think they should be a lot higher if these are the stats to outright kill them.

It is fine to have a CR, the question is what do you have to do apart from killing them?

 

[Luminous]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the 5E version of Challenge Ratings to offer any insight.

You're lucky, the 5e CRs are a mentally traumatizing experience.