Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[Upper_Krust]

Can I ask what the point of listing all the gods with a CR is for? Is the point to be able to fight them and take their abilities like in 1e where we had a party be able to kill the whole pantheon and become gods themselves. Is it to fight them on the home plane and destroy their 'avatar' only to have them reappear in their domain. I can see the CR along the lines of what some are listing if the PCs cannot truly kill gods, but would think they should be a lot higher if these are the stats to outright kill them.

Howdy aco175!

Determining the CR for different ranks of deities is useful when a DM wants to incorporate that deity into their campaign as a possible adversary for very high level or epic level PCs.

Note that the various official 'Monster' books already have stats for multiple deities. So where possible I always like to parallel the official rules.

In my 3.5E Ascension pdf I showed how Players could become deities and indeed through defeating gods steal a portion of their power.

Typically a god could only be permanently defeated on their home plane where they are at their most powerful (though there are some epic spells and cosmic monsters that can kill a god outside their home plane).

If we take the example of a CR 30 (Greater?) god, then in a straight fight its possible that a well honed party of Level 20 PCs might triumph. However, this fails to take a lot into consideration.

1. Gods are (historically) more powerful on their home planes/home realms.
2. Gods typically have hundreds or even thousands (if not millions) of servants on their home plane and many of those may be individually tougher than any single one of your PCs. The notion that a deity will simply fight a party on their own is completely ludicrous.
3. A deities realm will likely have certain traits and effects in place that further advantage the god and their followers.

So while a Level 20 party may well defeat Orcus as officially detailed, there is no way they would ever face him alone and likely no way they will be able to fight their way through his most powerful servants. Have a look at my 4E version of Orcus to see how I detailed his most powerful servants:

Article: Orcus Revisited

The Orcus entry was updated on the 11th of March. There have been two official takes on Orcus in 4th Edition (Monster Manual and E3: Prince of Undeath), but none of them created truly satisfying op…

eternitypublishing.wordpress.com

As a general rule of thumb I'd say if the PCs challenge any deity in their home realm that god will be backed up by at least one of its more powerful servants for each of the PCs and that doesn't even take into account the PCs would still need to defeat several tough encounters to even get near the Throne Room.

Personal power will be increased while on their home plane, though exactly what that means in terms of powers and CR I am still mulling over.

 

[Luminous]

Elder gods: CR 41-45
Overgods (Old Ones): CR 46-50
Paramount (First Ones): CR 51-55
Superlunary (Demiurge): CR 56-60

I like Demogorgon at CR 35 (1,440 HP, can resurrect twice (4,320 HP), three times in home plane (5760 HP).

 

[Luminous]

Howdy aco175!

Determining the CR for different ranks of deities is useful when a DM wants to incorporate that deity into their campaign as a possible adversary for very high level or epic level PCs.

Note that the various official 'Monster' books already have stats for multiple deities. So where possible I always like to parallel the official rules.

In my 3.5E Ascension pdf I showed how Players could become deities and indeed through defeating gods steal a portion of their power.

Typically a god could only be permanently defeated on their home plane where they are at their most powerful (though there are some epic spells and cosmic monsters that can kill a god outside their home plane).

If we take the example of a CR 30 (Greater?) god, then in a straight fight its possible that a well honed party of Level 20 PCs might triumph. However, this fails to take a lot into consideration.

1. Gods are (historically) more powerful on their home planes/home realms.
2. Gods typically have hundreds or even thousands (if not millions) of servants on their home plane and many of those may be individually tougher than any single one of your PCs. The notion that a deity will simply fight a party on their own is completely ludicrous.
3. A deities realm will likely have certain traits and effects in place that further advantage the god and their followers.

So while a Level 20 party may well defeat Orcus as officially detailed, there is no way they would ever face him alone and likely no way they will be able to fight their way through his most powerful servants. Have a look at my 4E version of Orcus to see how I detailed his most powerful servants:

Article: Orcus Revisited

The Orcus entry was updated on the 11th of March. There have been two official takes on Orcus in 4th Edition (Monster Manual and E3: Prince of Undeath), but none of them created truly satisfying op…

eternitypublishing.wordpress.com

As a general rule of thumb I'd say if the PCs challenge any deity in their home realm that god will be backed up by at least one of its more powerful servants for each of the PCs and that doesn't even take into account the PCs would still need to defeat several tough encounters to even get near the Throne Room.

Personal power will be increased while on their home plane, though exactly what that means in terms of powers and CR I am still mulling over.

IIRC the official Tiamat at CR 30 was just an avatar, not the real deal.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Could I suggest some changes? The current 5e system isn't all that epic.
Demigods: CR 21-26
Lesser: CR 27-30
Inter: CR 31-35
Greater: CR 36-40 (Or up to 50).

Hey there Luminous!

The problem as I see it is that the further you deviate from CR 20 the less potential interaction you have for current Level 20 PCs (even those with epic boons).

For the CRs I listed you could perhaps add as much as +5 for the deity encountered within their home plane (maybe +3 might be better in terms of personal power with a further +2 coming from Lair/Realm traits and so forth).

 

[Upper_Krust]

It is fine to have a CR, the question is what do you have to do apart from killing them?

Well one interesting side effect of having a God's CR is that you can reverse engineer how powerful all its servants and clerics and followers will be (as well as determine numbers for those servants).

So stat-ing them is not simply about killing the gods, but that is the primary use at epic levels of play.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Elder gods: CR 41-45
Overgods (Old Ones): CR 46-50
Paramount (First Ones): CR 51-55
Superlunary (Demiurge): CR 56-60

I like Demogorgon at CR 35 (1,440 HP, can resurrect twice (4,320 HP), three times in home plane (5760 HP).

Hello again!

Depends on your game but ideally you want epic players to be able to challenge at least Demigods and probably Lesser Gods as well (though defeating the latter, especially getting past its servants is unlikely). Don't confuse personal power with overall power. As noted, if we factor home plane traits, lair traits, servants, traps/hazards players probably won't be able to defeat even CR 26 Demogorgon* in his home plane.

*Although I would revise damage totals for Demogorgon to make sure they match his CR.

 

[Luminous]

For the CRs I listed you could perhaps add as much as +5 for the deity encountered within their home plane (maybe +3 might be better in terms of personal power with a further +2 coming from Lair/Realm traits and so forth).

Why not allow it an additional use of this action?
Normally a God of a certain tier (lesser, demi, etc) gets X uses of its Mythic trait.
Kraken's Soul (Mythic Trait, 2/ Short or Long Rest). If Panzuriel is reduced to 0 hit points and does not discorporate, it doesn’t die or fall unconscious. Instead, all conditions and effects Panzuriel is suffering end for it, it regains all of its hit points, and all of its abilities recharge.
*made by thirteenspades from Dave2008's 5e Updates thread.
If a God is in its realm, it gains an extra use.
Additionally, its Challenge Rating is increased by (I dunno, perhaps by 1 per divine rank, so an intermediate god (divine rank 3) would gain +3 CR in its realm. Note that Mythic does not effect CR.

 

[Luminous]

Hello again!

Depends on your game but ideally you want epic players to be able to challenge at least Demigods and probably Lesser Gods as well (though defeating the latter, especially getting past its servants is unlikely).

Well, if epic starts at Level 21, they'd be able to challenge a Demigod already, though the more powerful demigods would be dangerous.

 

[Upper_Krust]

IIRC the official Tiamat at CR 30 was just an avatar, not the real deal.

If your campaign is unlikely to challenge Tiamat then any CR is irrelevant. If your PCs are going to challenge her then you are just better making her the real Tiamat.

Note that Tiamat, Bahamut, Orcus, Demogorgon, Asmodeus and more were in the 1st Edition Monster Manual...as monsters.

If you just want Campaign Status quo amongst the gods then just have stats for Avatars. But epic games should cause major upheavals to your campaign world.

Remember the 3rd Commandment of Epic:

Article: The Ten Commandments of Epic

This article seeks to explore the elements of what makes a campaign truly epic. Chatting with people on the various forums I get the impression many are disillusioned with the whole concept of what…

eternitypublishing.wordpress.com

 

[Luminous]

If your campaign is unlikely to challenge Tiamat then any CR is irrelevant. If your PCs are going to challenge her then you are just better making her the real Tiamat.

Note that Tiamat, Bahamut, Orcus, Demogorgon, Asmodeus and more were in the 1st Edition Monster Manual...as monsters.

If you just want Campaign Status quo amongst the gods then just have stats for Avatars. But epic games should cause major upheavals to your campaign world.

Remember the 3rd Commandment of Epic:

Article: The Ten Commandments of Epic

This article seeks to explore the elements of what makes a campaign truly epic. Chatting with people on the various forums I get the impression many are disillusioned with the whole concept of what…

eternitypublishing.wordpress.com

Killing an avatar is still a major step in defeating a god.