D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[Helldritch]

They indicate whether or not you are effective in combat, but they do nothing to measure how effective you are. Someone at 42/50 is not any more effective than someone at 34/50, or someone at 42/100, or someone at 7/7. We know this to be true, because the rules tell us this.

What Hit Points do measure, explicitly, is when and how badly you are hit. Someone at 34/50 has been hit twice as many times, or twice as severely, as someone at 42/100. Again, we know this because the rules tell us this.

The rules are pretty much clear.
Be you at 100% HP or 1%, your combat effectiveness is full. No loss.
HP represents luck, gods' favor, experience, plot armor and have nothing with how you fight. Your level and Proficiency bonus are what measure your combat effectiveness.
HP are not there to show how much physical punishment you can take, but how much you can avoid!

Take this scenario with Bob at different levels.
Bob the 1st level fighter is fighting an orc. The orc swings its axe for 13 points of damage. The axe cleave through the armor. Bob falls down, uncounscious. Will it be a fatal wound? Who knows. Billy the Bard is a bit far to heal...

Bob the 2nd level fighter is fighting an orc. The orc swings its axe for 12 points of damage. Bob barely parries the blow to his head. His experience saved him that injury. He is a bit tired, but he can press on the orc. Bob hits the orc for 13 points of damage, the orc barely parries with his shield. Bob wins the next initiative, and hit the orc for 10 points of damage. Now Bob kills the Orc with a clean strike to the heart. Billy the bard is still stuck with an orc. For some reason, the Orc keeps missing Billy but the orc is enraged beyond belief. "My mother was not a GOBLIN!" can Bob hear the orc. Bob rushes to Billy's help.

Bob the 20th level fighter is fighting 6 orcs. They all hit him for 12 damages (that DM is lucky isn't he?) Bob takes 72 damage but Bob parries all attacks. A lesser fighter would have been cut in pieces but not Bob. Bob feels that it is urgent that he does something. Bob did not see the arrow that struck his back for 8 damage as the armor deflected the arrow. Bob attacks the orcs, fell four of them, Action surge, kills the two others and rushes to help his friend Billy the Bard in a deadly lock with 4 more orcs. Bob kills two of these with his remaining attacks. Ho Bob does have a few scratches and bruises. But Bob is mostly fine. Nothing dangerous to his health was done. But better get some healing to be sure (or a short rest or whatever). And there are two more orc archers to deal with...

Here you are. You saw Bob at various stages of his career. Only in first level did the axe's swing put his life in danger. The other times, plot armor, experience, luck and gods' favors protected Bob. Bob in the two last examples is bruised, hurt and might even be bleeding a bit, but nothing serious was done to him. That is why his combat effectiveness isn't altered.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Perhaps it is just the terminology that is an issue?

Perhaps. The fact that a heavily injured hero is more likely to fall than a healthy hero would be, is certainly a factor in their long-term effectiveness; but that's not what the book is saying.

Are you "hit" though? It is more that the "attack against you was effective" and consequently your effectiveness will be reduced by the amount rolled. When your hp equals 0 you are no longer effective in the fight-- you are out.

Yes. Definitely. Absolutely. It must be the case that an attack which hits and deals damage has actually hit you. The alternative - that you can suffer injury without anyone touching you (by hand, weapon, or magic) - is too ridiculous to entertain. Such an assertion would cause far, far more problems than it solves.

I am really not getting this example: "Someone at 34/50 has been hit twice as many times, or twice as severely, as someone at 42/100."

That was a typo, because I haven't had coffee yet. The second value should be 42/50, indicated a loss of 8hp relative to the first value having lost 16hp.

 

[Helldritch]

@Helldritch, good summation. I will just add (and yes, I'm repeating my super-nit-picky comment) that it generally only takes 2 strikes when a PC is down to kill them not 3. If someone is unconscious, you get advantage to hit and it's an automatic crit. Critical hits make you lose 2 death saves.

Two other quick thoughts. Focusing fire can make a huge difference. Too often monsters spread out their damage which is not effective.

The other is to target the squishies. Have monsters come in from multiple directions or simply ignore that guy in full plate with a shield. Kill the wizard in the back first. I actually have to remember to attack the tanks in my party now and then so they can have their moment in the sun when I miss.

I'm sure there's more, maybe someday I'll write down thoughts coherently enough to start a separate thread.

Just to be nitpicky my self...
With a healing word, you'll need three hits to kill a character. 1 to bring him at zero and dying. Two more to seal the deal.
But, yeah, bad tactics also comes into play very often.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Bob in the two last examples is bruised, hurt and might even be bleeding a bit, but nothing serious was done to him. That is why his combat effectiveness isn't altered.

If he was hurt and bleeding, then he wouldn't be good as new after taking a nap. If there was nothing physically wrong with him whatsoever, then he wouldn't fall unconscious and potentially bleed to death from taking a single point of "real" damage.

There is no possible state for Bob to be in that supports his being perfectly fine after taking a nap, while also being an inch away from death. Your position is untenable.

To say nothing of that fact that you're trying to model the narrative and theological effects of an attack, while completely neglecting the physical reality where it's taking place. If you're firing an arrow at someone, and the possibility of it actually hitting them isn't even on the table, then something has gone catastrophically wrong with your model.

 

[TheSword]

Giving a hero that drops to 0 hp a level of exhaustion (cumulative with future drops) would go some way to reducing whack’a’mole

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If he was hurt and bleeding, then he wouldn't be good as new after taking a nap. If there was nothing physically wrong with him whatsoever, then he wouldn't fall unconscious and potentially bleed to death from taking a single point of "real" damage.

There is no possible state for Bob to be in that supports his being perfectly fine after taking a nap, while also being an inch away from death. Your position is untenable.

To say nothing of that fact that you're trying to model the narrative and theological effects of an attack, while completely neglecting the physical reality where it's taking place. If you're firing an arrow at someone, and the possibility of it actually hitting them isn't even on the table, then something has gone catastrophically wrong with your model.

Perhaps Bob was just really demoralised and dying of sadness?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Giving a hero that drops to 0 hp a level of exhaustion (cumulative with future drops) would go some way to reducing whack’a’mole

I have considered that. Has anyone actually tried this? I'm afraid that it would be too punitive to front line warriors who take most of the beating.

 

[tetrasodium]

I have considered that. Has anyone actually tried this? I'm afraid that it would be too punitive to front line warriors who take most of the beating.

I suspect it would make combat feel a lot like DCC while managing to narrow the gap between "yawn we can do this all day & "wow I didn't expect so many of you to die so quick". Rather than a healthy mount of strategy & planning because exhaustion makes a lot of the death spiraal injury mechanics people have pointed to look positively restrained.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I suspect it would make combat feel a lot like DCC while managing to narrow the gap between "yawn we can do this all day & "wow I didn't expect so many of you to die so quick". Rather than a healthy mount of strategy & planning because exhaustion makes a lot of the death spiraal injury mechanics people have pointed to look positively restrained.

Yes, you're probably right. I kinda wish exhaustion track was more granular. I have often considered using it for various mechanics but the problem is that one point is already really nasty and it gets way worse really quickly.

 

[Zsong]

Oh god. Ot another thread on hit points. Please god no. I’ll be good. I’ll be nice for Christmas. Please dear god don’t let this happen. I’ll even go to church this Sunday.