D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[Warpiglet-7]

it’s a long post. If TLDR, whatevs. If interested read on.

—————————————————

The problem with 5e….is me.

I played a little redbox as a kid with the older kids on the street and later my lifelong pal. And by Jr High, we started playing some AD&D.
In High School we were joined by a few other guys that we went to grade school with. It was game on! Lots and lots of AD&D 1e. We did not like 2e for various reasons and skipped it. Fast forward to grad school and when I was home on break we kept playing….all summer long. All-nighters. It was glorious. None of us had serious relationships at that time so it was possible.

3e hit while I was working on a doctorate. I was far from home but my mind was blown when I saw half-orc paladins. Fresh from 1e, this was a revelation. Skipped 3.5 and 4e and fell into a black hole with little D&D. Our kids, marriages etc. took precedence but being back home and my lifelong buddies is a blessing. Now grizzled family dudes, the call of 5e was strong…our lives permitted at least monthly play. A new fantastic era!

So where is the problem?

I have loved 5e. I think much of it is brilliant. Not in the sense that it has revolutionary mechanics or some trendy elegance but in that it is easier to DM (I refused to DM 3e) and because it has inspired so much character development. We did what we could in 1e, but I have found the choices in 5e (backgrounds and subclasses) has been a goldmine of inspiration. I don’t mean to say that they have it all covered, but with some of my own ideas, they have it all covered. I have developed some novel stories and personalities.

My problem comes in with occasional
dissatisfaction about the level of danger in the game. It seems like people are healed quickly and unless it’s a TPK, it’s not as dangerous and getting beat down lasts a round or two max.
I also have some nostalgia for the logistics of old….worrying about running out of things like torches and food. Some things just seem easier now.

But that is when reality hits me. When we were younger, the way we really got far was by DM fiat. Sure, you could get level drained and miss a death save but more broadly, the DM moderated some consequences so we could have a longer term meaningful story vs. a meatgrinder of anonymous jerks. In short, 5e has merely codified this fiat into the rules. It may not be that different, really.

In terms of moving forward I need to alter my expectations and be clear about what changes might give us a little more sense of danger. For one, it would not take much to make healing a little less automatic. Maybe long rests don’t take care of everything. Perhaps, long rests allow us to expend hit dice…or something. I have to think that through.

The other thing that can at times be frustrating is the power of missile weapons. We don’t tend to favor them as a group but I know the issue exists. In this context, we need to make sure we are not the problem. I think it makes sense to count arrows and make sure what is carried is reasonable and not just “OK” handwaving generous encumbrance rules.

Additionally, I think very careful application of cover rules need to be applied. Firing past a rank of friendlies actively fighting should lead to some penalty if the enemy is in their face. I would want to see partial cover etc. applied routinely here.

In a like vein, the ubiquity of dex builds, if they bother you, are mitigated by actually looking at encumbrance and ammunition accounting (IMHO, to an extent).

In short, for me to get the most enjoyment out of 5e I believe a little stricter approach to the rules that exist, the application of common sense (e.g. encumbrance) and so forth. But ultimately, I need to change my expectations.

I look back fondly at AD&D 1e since it seems to have been grittier and more dangerous. Maybe it was. But the truth is that we house ruled and DMed way into a game with consequences but only occasional death. We made some bad decisions and died more than a few times. Saving or trying to save a friend from tunnels full of ghouls is admirable but perhaps not always doable (found out the hard way). And playing with an evil party and experimenting with a deck of many things after the players (the real people!) have been drinking beers to early morning hours will do that as well!

Ultimately the problem with my enjoyment at times (not too frequent) I think is due to nostalgia and fairy tales I tell myself about older editions. Having said this “out loud” I am very ready to get back to playing with less negative self-talk to get in the way. Our characters are probably going to survive. And its OK.

 

[Marc_C]

I get that feeling too from time to time, then I remember how it really was. Deadly with too many house rules.

The way I run 5e:

• No multi-classing
• No feats
• Slow Natural Healing from the DMG.
• Short Rest are used only to recharge class abilities. No HD healing.
• Humans, dwarves, elf and halflings only.

If you want you can restrict it further by allowing only classes from AD&D, before Unearthed Arcana. Using Greyhawk as setting is also a good way to scratch that itch!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I look back fondly at AD&D 1e since it seems to have been grittier and more dangerous. Maybe it was. But the truth is that we house ruled and DMed way into a game with consequences but only occasional death. We made some bad decisions and died more than a few times. Saving or trying to save a friend from tunnels full of ghouls is admirable but perhaps not always doable (found out the hard way). And playing with an evil party and experimenting with a deck of many things after the players (the real people!) have been drinking beers to early morning hours will do that as well!

Ultimately the problem with my enjoyment at times (not too frequent) I think is due to nostalgia and fairy tales I tell myself about older editions. Having said this “out loud” I am very ready to get back to playing with less negative self-talk to get in the way. Our characters are probably going to survive. And its OK.

There are numerous ways to run 5e and make it like 1e. I do it.

You can also just run 1e, or OSE, or a different retroclone.

It will never be the same. The past is a foreign country.

It was different then, because you were different. You were younger. D&D was new. You had time (that you do not have now). Most likely you had a lot more friends that you had personal connections with (this is a common side effect of growing older- few people have the same social connections and closeness that they did in high school, college, and their 20s).

And, in addition to all of that, people tend to remember the best aspects of the past, and not the worst. You remember the thrill of the danger of level drains, but not having to wait 3 hours reading a book because you failed a save v. petrification and the rest of the party didn't have any way to turn you back handy.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Yep. Sucked to be healing while the party travelled on for sure!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Nice OP.

There is no problem with 5E. There never was. When I first started playing about two years, we played strictly RAW (so to say) for the first 5 levels, which took about 3 months IIRC. The game worked fine. Sure, there were some things that didn't sit well with me, but nothing that would keep me from playing the game and enjoying time with my friends.

I've been digging through my 1E stuff lately. Sure, a lot of the memories and nostalgia kicks in, but I also prefer the rules and mechanics in many ways. I like some of the stuff in 5E, too, but it is just a different game. shrug

Yes, it is a different time, too. After playing for decades, a lot of it becomes stale anyway. There are only so many kinds of adventures, only so many hooks, nothing is new or unique anymore. The only reason I've enjoyed the last two years with 5E is because most of our group were new players and so sharing it with them (since it was new to them) made it enjoyable--but even that is growing stale and so we're moving on to Shadowrun, then maybe Vampire, then 1E, or something else. Who knows?

Then again, it might just be time to stop altogether. Again, who knows?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Don't blame yourself for 5E being such a terrible game. There is zero excuse for the designers completely abandoning all obligation and reason with regards to the healing rules, or the way Dexterity works. They should be ashamed of themselves, and pretending otherwise will never fix anything.

 

[el-remmen]

Nostalgia is dangerous (I should know, I wrote a lot about it in my dissertation and touch on it frequently in my scholarly work), but it is a powerful force in our personal and social lives.

I have had to keep my own nostalgia from leading me to try to relive past events and relationships that could never be the same again, and from gaming with persons whose toxicity was making it difficult to go on and with whom the "good times" (though more memorable) were fewer and farther between at the gaming table (and beyond).

 

[tetrasodium]

it’s a long post. If TLDR, whatevs. If interested read on.

—————————————————

The problem with 5e….is me.

I played a little redbox as a kid with the older kids on the street and later my lifelong pal. And by Jr High, we started playing some AD&D.
In High School we were joined by a few other guys that we went to grade school with. It was game on! Lots and lots of AD&D 1e. We did not like 2e for various reasons and skipped it. Fast forward to grad school and when I was home on break we kept playing….all summer long. All-nighters. It was glorious. None of us had serious relationships at that time so it was possible.

3e hit while I was working on a doctorate. I was far from home but my mind was blown when I saw half-orc paladins. Fresh from 1e, this was a revelation. Skipped 3.5 and 4e and fell into a black hole with little D&D. Our kids, marriages etc. took precedence but being back home and my lifelong buddies is a blessing. Now grizzled family dudes, the call of 5e was strong…our lives permitted at least monthly play. A new fantastic era!

So where is the problem?

I have loved 5e. I think much of it is brilliant. Not in the sense that it has revolutionary mechanics or some trendy elegance but in that it is easier to DM (I refused to DM 3e) and because it has inspired so much character development. We did what we could in 1e, but I have found the choices in 5e (backgrounds and subclasses) has been a goldmine of inspiration. I don’t mean to say that they have it all covered, but with some of my own ideas, they have it all covered. I have developed some novel stories and personalities.

My problem comes in with occasional
dissatisfaction about the level of danger in the game. It seems like people are healed quickly and unless it’s a TPK, it’s not as dangerous and getting beat down lasts a round or two max.
I also have some nostalgia for the logistics of old….worrying about running out of things like torches and food. Some things just seem easier now.

But that is when reality hits me. When we were younger, the way we really got far was by DM fiat. Sure, you could get level drained and miss a death save but more broadly, the DM moderated some consequences so we could have a longer term meaningful story vs. a meatgrinder of anonymous jerks. In short, 5e has merely codified this fiat into the rules. It may not be that different, really.

In terms of moving forward I need to alter my expectations and be clear about what changes might give us a little more sense of danger. For one, it would not take much to make healing a little less automatic. Maybe long rests don’t take care of everything. Perhaps, long rests allow us to expend hit dice…or something. I have to think that through.

The other thing that can at times be frustrating is the power of missile weapons. We don’t tend to favor them as a group but I know the issue exists. In this context, we need to make sure we are not the problem. I think it makes sense to count arrows and make sure what is carried is reasonable and not just “OK” handwaving generous encumbrance rules.

Additionally, I think very careful application of cover rules need to be applied. Firing past a rank of friendlies actively fighting should lead to some penalty if the enemy is in their face. I would want to see partial cover etc. applied routinely here.

In a like vein, the ubiquity of dex builds, if they bother you, are mitigated by actually looking at encumbrance and ammunition accounting (IMHO, to an extent).

In short, for me to get the most enjoyment out of 5e I believe a little stricter approach to the rules that exist, the application of common sense (e.g. encumbrance) and so forth. But ultimately, I need to change my expectations.

I look back fondly at AD&D 1e since it seems to have been grittier and more dangerous. Maybe it was. But the truth is that we house ruled and DMed way into a game with consequences but only occasional death. We made some bad decisions and died more than a few times. Saving or trying to save a friend from tunnels full of ghouls is admirable but perhaps not always doable (found out the hard way). And playing with an evil party and experimenting with a deck of many things after the players (the real people!) have been drinking beers to early morning hours will do that as well!

Ultimately the problem with my enjoyment at times (not too frequent) I think is due to nostalgia and fairy tales I tell myself about older editions. Having said this “out loud” I am very ready to get back to playing with less negative self-talk to get in the way. Our characters are probably going to survive. And its OK.

Good post & I agree with a lot of your points, but you miss the mark on one. We didn't rely on gm fiat to recover from things and such, the goodwill of the GM was important if you wanted to find those critical ace in the hole things like a wand of cure wounds, potions of whatever, Interesting magical equipment, etc. Doing that tended to involve actively sussing out whatever story/plotline/adventure path the GM wanted to run & trying to at least circle it with forward momentum.

Because recovery is so instant and with everything simplified to the point that the GM's quiver is basically empty when it comes to gradually improving magic item churn incentives the GM : Player relationship is pretty much "I'm gonna do basically whatever I want and you can't do anything without blowing up the campaign & walking off" rather than "how can I make my players have chances to be awesome & find things that make them awesome without breaking the game"/"This world of yours, I want to see what it holds by seeing where you point"

That doesn't mean that games were railroads then, just that there were a lot more tools to shape sandbox campaigns that didn't involve just removing every other option.

edit:Before someone says "have you tried slow natural healing gritty realism & heal kit depend?"... Yes they run as if written by someone who was told "we need to make some options for these here playstyles so write a rule for slow natural healing, gritty realism, flanking, & facing" before going on to write rules that fit within the letter of the request that but meet none of the needs of what gms/players looking to use those things expect

 

[Zardnaar]

5E has it's problem on its own without comparing it to older editions.

Doesn't appeal to everyone.

 

[tetrasodium]

5E has it's problem on its own without comparing it to older editions.

Doesn't appeal to everyone.

While true, it's pretty hard to ignore the way 5e's attempt to get away from some of the stuff the OP mentions cause or exacerbate a lot of 5e's problems by those attempts being done in a half baked manner that didn't understand or consider what ripples the change causes elsewhere. If the replacement worked well & was well thought out people wouldn't care about the old ways as much.

 

[grimslade]

No edition will be as good as the edition you played the crap out of. Nothing will equal late 1E and early 2E for me because I played hundreds of hours with each of those systems. I think 5E is a good chassis. It just needs some options to customize the game to different playstyles. I would love to have a rework of the exhaustion rules and a real wound system for a gritty slog.

 

[Oofta]

I use some of the "gritty" rules from the DMG, the main one being a short rest is overnight and a long rest is (usually) a week or more. Then I throw 5-10 encounters with no long rest. So basically by the time they get to the last encounter or two they're low on HD (if not HP), spell slots and resources in general.

That and I'm stingy. Not a lot of gold, not a lot of magic items. People have to rely more on creative thinking and class abilities. I also limit raise dead and plane shift type spells (including banish). I effectively ban resurrection, teleport (except for line of sight).

Beyond that, there's always focusing fire, double taps, creatures attacking in magical darkness, using environment and things like I mentioned in the other thread about dragging people off. Oh, and being significantly far away from the party is a great opportunity for a flanking maneuver so the archers aren't nearly as safe as they think.

But ... I always discuss how deadly the group wants a game to be at the start of the campaign and they don't want a high body count. On the other hand, we never had a high body count when playing 1E either even though I can't really remember how we avoided it. So I'm not sure the gritty/high death count is the only thing. I wouldn't have problems killing off PCs if I really wanted to, you can always turn the threat level up to 11.

I also do a fair number of custom monsters and create "special" legendary or near-legendary monsters so people don't know what they're hitting. For that matter, even reskinning creatures with minor modifications seems to help with the "oh, this is a ___" issue. Lately I've been doing a lot of aberration type creatures and special conditions just to mess with people.

But I'm not sure anything can bring back that feeling of discovery, and there's always the option of just taking a sabbatical for a bit. It will still be here waiting when you're ready to come back.

 

[Marc_C]

In 2020 I had a lot of free time because of Covid-19. I had this nagging feeling of missing something during my 5e games.

I re-read my B/X books, re-read some parts of 1e and 2e. After that I read BlueHolmes and Old School Essentials. It was a rabbit hole. My conclusion is that I'm burned out of D&D, regardless of edition.

The only part I still really care about is The World of Greyhawk. I'm currently using it as the setting for my Fantasy AGE campaign. It's a new game with new players. That is what I like. To boldly role-play a game I've not played before!

 

[pming]

Hiya!

"Hard-Core 1e/Hackmaster" DM here. What I did for my 5e Campaigning is this:

• You heal 1/2 your "Total HD" after a full rest. Bonus/Penalty based on circumstance, location, safety, etc.
• Re-Implemented "Save or Die" stuff. There are poisons that KILL YOU if you fail. Failed the Disintegration Save? POOF! Pile of dust.
• No Multiclassing
• No Feats
• Core "only" (PHB/DMG/MM; other stuff on case-by-case...maybe...)
• 1/4 to 1/2 XP value from Monsters; XP from obtaining Gold value (typically 1:1 or 1:2, depending on how XP-to-Gold).
• Death Save for being Raised/Resurrected; fail upon being Raised, permanently fill in one Death Save circle. And -1 CON, regardless.
• Using Material Components (actually having it...not 'focus' or 'component pouch') grants the Caster a little 'bonus' to the spell.
• Keep Track Of STUFF! (Food, water, torches, oil, etc). "Inventory Management", basically.

That's what I can remember off the top of my head. Seems to work well...highest level PC of any of my Players has been 7th level. With I think 1 6th, 2 5th, a handful of 3rd and 4th level PC's. My game is plenty deadly.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Dausuul]

There is no problem with 5E. There never was.

I wouldn't say there's nothing wrong with 5E. I'd say there's nothing deeply wrong with 5E.

Mostly it just needs cleanup. The machine does what it's built to do, but there are a lot of little hitches and clicks and grindy sounds, and now and then a bit falls off and you have to stick it back on. It's the same problem 3E and 4E had: You can't polish and iterate when you're rebuilding the game from the ground up, and there's only so much you can do with splatbooks after the fact.

I'm hoping we'll see a 6E in the not too distant future which resembles the 1E to 2E transition. Except for the part where they stuck weird silly names on all the fiends.

 

[Sabathius42]

Well written OP.

A couple things that can make your 5e game more dangerous that are already in the rules of the game and don't involve messing with rest rules.

1. As you say, friendlies DO act as cover to ranged attacks.
2. Visual skill checks are disadvantaged when the party is using darkvision.
3. A monster hitting a downed PC automatically give them a failed death save.
4. Levels of exhaustion are hard to shake. They can be given out more freely than when explicitly called for by the few rules hooks that involve them.
5. The mechanics for losing MAX HP (like from undead hits) can be used to represent injury, disease, or other long term maladies.

To roll this all into one individual exploration pillar encounter.

Example dangerous situation: The party decides to climb up and over a mountain rather than go around. At the top of the summit they are tired from the effort (the entire party now has one level of exhaustion). They decide to press on to the bottom as there is a comfy cabin there waiting for them. As they descend the sun goes down leaving them in darkness. The party, all elves and dwarves, doesn't bother with torches or light spells to remain hidden from nearby lurking dangers. They make a series of Climb checks (at disadvantage because they are climbing at night), and two of the party get some really bad results. Finally as dawn breaks and they arrive at the cabin (now with two levels of exhaustion) the wizard and the rogue are nursing a twisted ankle (-7 MAX HP) and a mild concussion (-3 MAX HP). Ready to take a full day of rest to move on, the party opens the cabin door to reveal its been overrun with the goblins they were avoiding during the night. Roll Inititative.

 

[DemoMonkey]

"The problem with 5e….is me."

This is going to be a HUGE timesaver on the forums!

 

[Oofta]

Well written OP.

A couple things that can make your 5e game more dangerous that are already in the rules of the game and don't involve messing with rest rules.

1. As you say, friendlies DO act as cover to ranged attacks.
2. Visual skill checks are disadvantaged when the party is using darkvision.
3. A monster hitting a downed PC automatically give them a failed death save.
4. Levels of exhaustion are hard to shake. They can be given out more freely than when explicitly called for by the few rules hooks that involve them.
5. The mechanics for losing MAX HP (like from undead hits) can be used to represent injury, disease, or other long term maladies.

To roll this all into one individual exploration pillar encounter.

Example dangerous situation: The party decides to climb up and over a mountain rather than go around. At the top of the summit they are tired from the effort (the entire party now has one level of exhaustion). They decide to press on to the bottom as there is a comfy cabin there waiting for them. As they descend the sun goes down leaving them in darkness. The party, all elves and dwarves, doesn't bother with torches or light spells to remain hidden from nearby lurking dangers. They make a series of Climb checks (at disadvantage because they are climbing at night), and two of the party get some really bad results. Finally as dawn breaks and they arrive at the cabin (now with two levels of exhaustion) the wizard and the rogue are nursing a twisted ankle (-7 MAX HP) and a mild concussion (-3 MAX HP). Ready to take a full day of rest to move on, the party opens the cabin door to reveal its been overrun with the goblins they were avoiding during the night. Roll Inititative.

Minor nitpick: a monster hitting a downed PC attacks with advantage and automatically crits giving them 2 failed death saves.

But most people forget the disadvantage on perception with darkvision, it's a good callout.

 

[Umbran]

Our characters are probably going to survive. And its OK.

To quote Dr. Leonard McCoy, "What's so damned troublesome about not having died?"

 

[MichaelSomething]

Maybe Advanced 5th would be more towards your liking??