D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[Gammadoodler]

A philosophy professor told me once, when trying to make a point, use the most extreme example you can think of for shock value! Sorry if it bothers you.

Did they also tell you to use examples that are grossly not applicable?

 

[zarionofarabel]

Did they also tell you to use examples that are grossly not applicable?

You also completely missed my point I guess, which was about speaking up about the change you want to see rather than staying silent because your opinion might cause dissent. It has nothing to do with racism.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So how can people who must to play some specific race handle official setting that do not have all races or whose take on them is very different?

Just tell the group that (which we all agree is good, btw). Let players chew on it and react. Get bad faith answers/questions? Show them the door. Get good faith answers/questions? Work to satisfy both interests. It might fail. That's okay. And be charitable. Bad faith rarely requires a magnifying glass to spot.

I can't speak for anyone but me. But I rely on players bringing cool ideas, both at setting and personal levels, because I'm not skilled or confident enough to think that I alone can make all the good ideas that are worth including in my game.

For example IIRC Dark Sun has no gnomes or warforged and its take on may of the other races is rather divergent too. If one wants to play an elf but their idea is some sort of a Tolkienish high and mighty refined magical super being, would they really be satisfied with Dark Sun's ragged desert elves who have practically nothing in common with that?

It is likely they wouldn't be. So we'd look for something more or different. 4e introduced the idea of the Land Within the Winds, so perhaps a timelost resident who remembers that world when it was fully real and is horrified (but also driven) by seeing what it has become.

What about settings that are not even originally D&D settings? If I want to run a game in the world of Dark Crystal, do I need to port all the standard D&D races into it if I decide to use D&D as a system for it?

Need to? No. Well, not in some absolute sense. But I do think it is good--call it "creative humility"--to recognize that the setting exactly as presented may not be guaranteed to offer the best possible experience, and thus being willing to examine parts of it (including the playable races) to see what potential exists out there. The world is our oyster as TTRPG players; to not even pause and entertain the thought of things other than how we have done them, even if we ultimately make no changes, is a shame.

Really quite a good question. And applicable to my situation. As someone who rather despises both the stereotypical D&D elf and the stereotypical D&D dwarf, what would a "player's choice absolutist" say about one of my campaigns, where one of the first things I say when a new player sits down at my table is: "Elves in my game settings don't hug trees or look down on other races, and dwarves aren't violent drunkards who talk in an exaggerated brogue. If you play to one of those stereotypes (which you're of course still free to do), NPCs won't see you as just acting like an elf or a dwarf, they'll see you as being a weirdo or a jerk, and they'll react accordingly."

I support this 100%. You are asking players to think about culture and environment, not simply coast on cliché and stereotype. Stereotypes can absolutely still exist within a world (e.g. Jinnistani natives are considered decadent, Safiqi priests are presumed to be a bit staid all the time, Kahina and especially shaman have a reputation of being frustratingly cryptic, etc.), but just as with the real world, these aren't simply accepted. People respond to how you treat them and will not take stereotype an an excuse for bad behavior. (Though as part of the tragedy of mortal bias, some will likely dismiss the good you do as stereotype or compensation for one. Alas, what a piece of work is Man.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Need to? No. Well, not in some absolute sense. But I do think it is good--call it "creative humility"--to recognize that the setting exactly as presented may not be guaranteed to offer the best possible experience, and thus being willing to examine parts of it (including the playable races) to see what potential exists out there. The world is our oyster as TTRPG players; to not even pause and entertain the thought of things other than how we have done them, even if we ultimately make no changes, is a shame.

And perhaps that same humility could be used to recognise that the races exactly as presented in PHB are not guaranteed to to always produce the best experience? That list of races is not inherently any better or more interesting that the list of races in Dark Sun or Dark Crystal (IMHO, quite the opposite, but YMMV.)

My issue with wanting to shove the exact same versions of the exact same races into every setting is not that I could not come up with some sort of justification it. It is fiction, and thus mutable, so it can easily be done. But doing so makes the setting less unique; not every world needs to be turned into a copy of Forgotten Realms. Let the settings be unique, be their own things, and have their own sets races.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You also completely missed my point I guess, which was about speaking up about the change you want to see rather than staying silent because your opinion might cause dissent. It has nothing to do with racism.

Yeah, I suppose I did miss your point when you compared your struggle to defend your right to deny access to your game to players who want to use races you don't like...

to the struggle to end discrimination in the way people are treated based on their race.

I more or less get what you're trying to say...but that is a colossally bad example of it.

 

[Scott Christian]

Well, that degree of detail is not yet in my world, because the focus on my world-building has been on other things. Most of the notes I mentioned are in the form of a large gazetteer document covering geography, history, and where various races and classes fit in the setting. I'll provide some detail on my shadar-kai by way of example:

I use mostly 5e lore for elves. All elves are from the Feywild and migrated to the world thousands of years ago. As they arrived, different groups explored the world further and their elfy nature changed them to forms better suited to the environment they ended up in. Those who stayed close to the original Fey crossing became high elves, those who traveled to distant forests became wood elves, aquatic elves in the sea, dark elves underground (not necessarily evil, just different), etc. True eladrin still live in the Feywild, and only occasionally visit. One traveling group of dark elves stumbled into a crossing to the Shadowfell while exploring underground, and were nearly exterminated fighting off the undead and shadow-beasts they encountered there. They came upon The Judge (a dispassionate death god in my setting, similar to the Raven Queen) and offered service in exchange for protection. He accepted, and they became the shadow elves.

I came up with that after about 20 minutes of conversation with my player and writing last week, so I don't know much else yet. If more details become important, I'll create them, but I always try to strike a balance between what my players want and what makes sense to me personally. I don't always get what I want. I had a player a while back come up with a lizardfolk idea that is definitely not the way I would have done it, but it worked and it made him happy, so the "Black Crocs of Pantano" still pop up every now and then. So far, so good.

I like it. It seems fun for you and the players.

If you do get to that detail, you may find that throwing in an ingredient is not as easy. Or you still may be able to do it. I don't want judge. I just think it is important for DM's that have done all that work to be acknowledged, not as "whiny" or "pissy" when not allowing a race, but as accepted. I would even go so far as praised.

There is a difference in players too. Many, especially younger players, just assume they can choose anything. I have seen many high schoolers pick things that were not even in the books. They just used another race's bonuses for their crab person or 6" pixie. Good on them. But, I am older. I ask the DM or expect the DM to have that information laid out for the players. If they don't, sometimes I think, why are you DM'ing then? But then, we play, it's fun, and I realize my way is not another person's way.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Yeah, I suppose I did miss your point when you compared your struggle to defend your right to deny access to your game to players who want to use races you don't like...

to the struggle to end discrimination in the way people are treated based on their race.

I more or less get what you're trying to say...but that is a colossally bad example of it.

Shocked the crap out of you though, right? Got your heart beating and got you all riled up, right? Got your ATTENTION, right?

Then, when you calmed yourself and read the other part, you saw my point that the whole paragraph that that reference was a small part of was trying to say. Shock value has, well, value. Try doing this when making points. It makes you the center of attention in almost any discussion. It's also alot of fun at parties.

I apologize again for making you angry. Sincerely!

 

[Scott Christian]

Of course the published campaigns are kitchen sink. They want you to buy more books so you can play that shiny new race.

I would add that I am not really sure they are even kitchen sink material. They have a tendency to not put out new races for a few years. That is several years of dealing with only the races in the PHB.
I think they set that up in the beginning: Here are your adventurer races. Choose one.
If they wanted something different, they would publish a book at the same time they do the PHB. It would be 200 pages and titled: Playable Races. But they do not.
If you are just talking about culture and lore, that always changes. If we strictly adhered to lore, there are more pages of drow being bad than any other race in existence. But that is not the thought process right now for some. And that is okay.
So kitchen sink... with all the alternate planes... maybe. But, the PHB implies differently.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Shocked the crap out of you though, right? Got your heart beating and got you all riled up, right? Got your ATTENTION, right?

Then, when you calmed yourself and read the other part, you saw my point that the whole paragraph that that reference was a small part of was trying to say. Shock value has, well, value. Try doing this when making points. It makes you the center of attention in almost any discussion. It's also alot of fun at parties.

I apologize again for making you angry. Sincerely!

Nah man, never angry even once, amused and amazed that someone would say something so .....

I can't think of a remotely kind way to finish that sentence.

 

[Minigiant]

Essentially, it's a shortcut, or a heuristic, to know that the DM isn't going to be good.*

Here's one that I often use- the DM NPC. Now, I know that there are DMs out there that can use or have a DM NPC without a problem, but that is a major red flag for me. If I know a DM uses DM NPC(s), then I will have my guard up. I've seen it go wrong far too many times, and it's correlated with DMs that like to inject themselves into the game too much. IME.


*As opposed to DMs that ban elves, which is a sure-fire sign of quality!

DMPC is a major red flag.

That is why I'm glad Tasha calls the "NPC" classes sidekicks.