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Burning Wheel Expectations ...?

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
@pemerton

You described in the thread (it's now approaching War and Peace status, I guess) that @zarionofarabel started, where you described your mage character (Thurgon's sidekick, IIRC, whose name I've forgotten--I am miserable with names; I consider it a win that I remember all the characters' names in two campaigns I'm DMing) determining, in a Burning Wheel game using the Greyhawk map, that Evard's tower was "around here somewhere." The exact mechanics may not be entirely necessary to discuss, but I have one main question, and a couple-few prefatory question (to make sure I'm understanding things)

Prefatory question 1: Because you had success on the check, you were able to narrate that the tower was where you wanted it to be, without consequence or complication?

Prefatory question 2: Had you failed, the GM would have been able to say "It's not around here" or "It's around here but it's cursed/in ruins/otherwise a mess"?

Main question: Would it have been fair (in this context, within expectations for the game) for the GM's response on a failure to say, "Yeah, it's around here. You practically walked past it on your way to town. Why didn't you stop?"

I'm asking because I'd kinda want to know that, even on a success (though I gather there'd be roughly no reason to ask).
 

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pemerton

Legend
Prefatory question 1: Because you had success on the check, you were able to narrate that the tower was where you wanted it to be, without consequence or complication?
Sort-of. The sequence matters to the play experience.

I've just reviewed my notes on the session in question and it is not more specific than this:

Thurgon and Aramina debated what their destination should be (Aramina - being learned in Great Masters-wise, believes that the abandoned tower of Evard the Black lay somewhere in the forest on the north side of the river, and wants to check it out). Thurgon persuaded her that they could not do such a thing unless (i) she fixed his breastplate, and (ii) they found some information in the abandoned fortresses of his order which would indicate that the tower was, at least, superficially safe to seek out (eg not an orc fortress a la Angmar/Dol Guldur).​

It wasn't until the session after this that we arrived at the tower.

My recollection/conjecture as to how it played is along these lines:

Me: Aramina has Great Masters-wise. She thinks Evards't tower is around here.

GM: OK, make a check vs Ob [x] <probably 2 or 3? I don't remember now>

Me: <roll dice? Success!

GM: <narrates something affirming Aramina's recollection of the lore of the Great Masters>​

What's important about the sequence is that the player states the task - here, remembering something - and states the intent - here, knowing oneself to be in the vicinity of Evard's tower - before the dice are rolled.

Success in BW is sacrosanct, and means that the task succeeded and the player's intent is realised. So in this case Aramina knows that we are in the neighbourhood of Evard's tower. But there is never a point at which I, as the player, had to narrate the location of the tower, nor declare any action other than from my PC's perspective.

To actually find it I think that Thurgon Circled up a friendly former knight of his order, who took us there on his barge.


Prefatory question 2: Had you failed, the GM would have been able to say "It's not around here" or "It's around here but it's cursed/in ruins/otherwise a mess"?
So the GM would have to frame the consequence in relation to the check. He can't say "It's not around here". He can say "As you think more, you remember that there are two rivers name Jewel and you've got the wrong one"; or "You remember it was around here, but you also remember the tales that it disappeared, together with Evard himself, a century ago"; or, to follow your examples "You remember it was around here, but it's said to have been cursed. He can even say "No, that's not what you remember. It's not around here" but that sort of flat-"out negation would generally be considered weak BW GMing.

The tower could be ruined or a mess even when we find it following a success, because that wasn't part of the declared intent. But obviously the ruin or mess can't be so extreme that we don't really count as having found Evard's tower at all. The GM knows that this is related to Aramina's Belief that she will find spellbooks, and just flat-out blocking that despite the successful Wises check would be poor GMing. (In response to the question: so what stops a player declaring unlimited Wises checks to contribute to/shape the content of everything in the setting? the answer is, in a sense nothing but in practice the player will eventually want to do something other than just have his/her PC recall facts! And it's no skin off the GM's nose to work within the fictional context that the player has helped to establish.)

But to have had the tower incorporated into a castle so that to find any spellbooks we first have to deal with the castellan - that would be fair game.

As you can see the boundary between fiction that honours success and fiction that gives effect to failure is not bright line but rather about the spirit in which downstream elements of the fiction are established and presented by the GM, and - roughly - whether they are opportunities (Thurgon is all over castles and castellans and that sort of thing) or whether they are hurdles (a powerful curse would be a hurdle for Aramina and Thurgon given the limits of their capacity to deal with such a thing).


Would it have been fair (in this context, within expectations for the game) for the GM's response on a failure to say, "Yeah, it's around here. You practically walked past it on your way to town. Why didn't you stop?"
Not as you present it, no. That's just an attempt to retrofit on a perceptual experience that the player (as the controller of his/her PC) should already know about.

Here's one way to make that work: the GM could narrate something like As you ponder, Aramina, you realise that that small outworks you passed a couple of days ago must have been it. At the time you thought nothing of it - but you do recall that Evard was a master of cloaking and antipathy magic.

The failure would then require further tests - eg whatever might be involved in retracing our steps, and/or piercing the illusion - to get what we want.

A further comment: I hope you can see why I think the idea that a game like BW is about "doing without a GM" is just ridiculous. You can - I hope - see how much GM skill and judgement is required just in adjudicating and then building on this one simple action declaration. Done badly and the game will sour - the GM I play under has never GMed any RPG (but has played quite a number of them) before this campaign, and especially in the first session or two made a few bad calls. Done well, though, and the back-and-forth between player and GM will quickly generate a rich and compelling fiction!

Finally: I summon @zarionofarabel who I think has BW experience.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Not as you present it, no. That's just an attempt to retrofit on a perceptual experience that the player (as the controller of his/her PC) should already know about.

Here's one way to make that work: the GM could narrate something like As you ponder, Aramina, you realise that that small outworks you passed a couple of days ago must have been it. At the time you thought nothing of it - but you do recall that Evard was a master of cloaking and antipathy magic.

The failure would then require further tests - eg whatever might be involved in retracing our steps, and/or piercing the illusion - to get what we want.
First, thanks for answering. I read the Starter Book while doing something else, so ... I guess I'm allowing for the possibility something isn't in it and the possibility I missed something.

Second, the point of the second question is on the lines of pressing on the character's Beliefs, if that isn't clear. The Starter Book says in several places that it's about testing characters' Beliefs, and ... there's not a lot of GMing instruction/advice in it, relatively speaking (I mean, it's only 74 pages, and it's free; I'm not complaining).
 

pemerton

Legend
By the "starter book" you mean the Hub and Spokes for BW Gold? These don't include the stuff on the role of the GM, nor the discussion of how Beliefs work in the Character Burner section. And then there's more elaboration in the Adventure Burner (for Revised) that was republished in the Codex (for Gold).

As far as pressing on Beliefs is concerned: imagine that the PCs are now approaching the Tower, either because the check was successful and they found it, or the check failed but they've overcome whatever obstacles ensued.

And suppose the GM has taken up my idea that the tower has now been incorporated into a castle with a castellan and men-at-arms and the like.

This presses on Beliefs, because it's clear that Aramina will probably need Thurgon's help to get into the castle and thus into the tower. And one of her three Beliefs (at that point in time) is I don't need Thurgon's pity.

The idea of "testing Beliefs" as GM is about establishing situations that - given the PCs' Beliefs - are likely to compel action but also force both internal and external conflict. If, as a player, it doesn't feel hard, then the GM is softballing.

(This contrasts with, say, Prince Valiant. Which plays with a much lighter tone.)
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Yup. That's the book. I might at some point grab more of the system, but ... there are limits to how far I'm eager to pursue a game I'm unlikely to play (even if that's mostly about finding other players) if that makes sense.

I guess I was thinking a GM could press on a Belief by asking why a character wasn't pursuing it ... but either I didn't ask that clearly or it's another example of my thinking backward and upside-down.
 

pemerton

Legend
I guess I was thinking a GM could press on a Belief by asking why a character wasn't pursuing it ... but either I didn't ask that clearly or it's another example of my thinking backward and upside-down.
There is discussion of this in the Adventure Burner, and maybe also in the core rules (but probably not in Hub and Spokes): if a Belief doesn't seem to be "clicking" then that is a reason to rework/rewrite it. GMs and players are expected to have that sort of conversation. But it's more of a "meta" conversation than a component of play itself.
 

Hmmm...

I've always allowed players to narrate a successful -wises check. This allows the player to decide how they would like the character's knowledge to be used as well as allowing the player to choose to add their own elements to the setting lore. A failed -wises check leaves the revelation of setting lore in the hands of the GM, most often resulting in the character being misinformed and having to overcome additional challenges to achieve their goals. The end result is often similar (Evard's tower being in the same location) just the effort involved in realizing the character's goals will be different.

Beliefs need to be challenged on a regular basis or the system is not being used to it's full potential. If a Belief is not being used regularly, either because the player doesn't want to use it, or the GM is unsure or unwilling to challenge it, then it needs to be changed or abandoned. The challenging of Beliefs is, essentially, the whole point. The conversation on what a character's Beliefs is definitely between GM and Player.
 

pemerton

Legend
I've always allowed players to narrate a successful -wises check. This allows the player to decide how they would like the character's knowledge to be used as well as allowing the player to choose to add their own elements to the setting lore.
What matters to me - maybe not to others - is the difference between A and B below:

Version A
Player: I seem to recall <xyz>.
GM: make a Wises check vs Obstacle n.
Player: <rolls dice, succeeds>
GM: yep, as you recall, it is <xyz>.

Version B
Player: I want to establish some fact about <xyz>.
GM: make a Wises check.
Player: <rolls dice, succeeds>
GM: OK, tell us what it is that you recall.
Player: <starts narrating about xyz>​

The difference is that, in A, (i) the player has stated a precise thing that s/he is (in character) recalling, and therefore (ii) the GM can set a precise obstacle, and finally (iii) the player never has to step out of in-character action declaration.

Whereas in B, the player at the meta-level seeks permission to narrate some fiction, and then makes a check to be granted that permission. And so isn't in character the whole time. Also, in B the GM can't set a difficulty based on what it is that the player hopes to recall.

I think that canonical Burning Wheel uses version A. Off the top of my head I don't know a system that uses B - but maybe some PbtA systems could, as those systems used standard dice spreads and don't adjust the throw required to reflect the fictional positioning in the way that BW does.
 

What matters to me - maybe not to others - is the difference between A and B below:

Version A
Player: I seem to recall <xyz>.​
GM: make a Wises check vs Obstacle n.​
Player: <rolls dice, succeeds>​
GM: yep, as you recall, it is <xyz>.​
Version B
Player: I want to establish some fact about <xyz>.​
GM: make a Wises check.​
Player: <rolls dice, succeeds>​
GM: OK, tell us what it is that you recall.​
Player: <starts narrating about xyz>​

The difference is that, in A, (i) the player has stated a precise thing that s/he is (in character) recalling, and therefore (ii) the GM can set a precise obstacle, and finally (iii) the player never has to step out of in-character action declaration.

Whereas in B, the player at the meta-level seeks permission to narrate some fiction, and then makes a check to be granted that permission. And so isn't in character the whole time. Also, in B the GM can't set a difficulty based on what it is that the player hopes to recall.

I think that canonical Burning Wheel uses version A. Off the top of my head I don't know a system that uses B - but maybe some PbtA systems could, as those systems used standard dice spreads and don't adjust the throw required to reflect the fictional positioning in the way that BW does.
Definitely Version A! I much prefer the character explain the thing that they know to the meta where the player requests the addition. It can make for a fun scene especially if the player gets into telling a tale about said knowledge.
 

darkbard

Legend
The difference is that, in A, (i) the player has stated a precise thing that s/he is (in character) recalling, and therefore (ii) the GM can set a precise obstacle, and finally (iii) the player never has to step out of in-character action declaration.

Whereas in B, the player at the meta-level seeks permission to narrate some fiction, and then makes a check to be granted that permission. And so isn't in character the whole time. Also, in B the GM can't set a difficulty based on what it is that the player hopes to recall.

Super useful distinction! And rather illustratively belies the false claim that this form of player agency necessarily disturbs "immersion."
 

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