A Question Of Agency?

[Aldarc]

Maybe it would be a better approach, @Bedrockgames, rather than saying that the GM deciding the brother was dead would be okay with "lots of people" or "guys I know" to talk about why it's okay for you personally in your preferred playstyle to declare that the brother was dead since you are the one invested in this particular playstyle preference.

This would be like me taking my sandbox approach and acting surprised when I run a game with Pemerton, Aldarc and Innerdude. It would be especially annoying to them, I am sure, if I did so using PbtA or Burning Wheel (which I am assuming I might even have to bend rules to achieve). From the segment of the hobby they come from, that is a style norm I am violating.

Innerdude's game of choice is Savage Worlds. Pemerton runs a gamut of games, including Classic Traveller. It's not as if we are all coming from fringe games or communities.

 

[FrogReaver]

I’m about to commit the cardinal sin of rpg discussions. So forgive me in advance. It’s very relevant though and I think our avoidance of this topic is clouding this agency discussion.

when a player is determining a piece of the setting is he roleplaying in that moment? He surely is advocating for his character - but is that roleplaying?

that isn’t to say he isn’t roleplaying in other moments but is he roleplaying in that particular moment?

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think it's unfair to describe any pushback as a "hostile, angry reaction".


And maybe stop using overly charged language like this too? Thanks.

All I can say is, if you want me to interpret your posts as non-hostile, make a point of not sounding hostile. Maybe you are not intending that to be the vibe of your posts. But I am finding your posts and the posts of others to be aggressive, hostile and attacking. Tone isn't well conveyed by text, so there is always that. But communication is a two way street

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think it's only a dick move if the table's expectations are that there's a chance to find the brother alive.

Which is a statement I agree with. I hope I've been clear that if there is this expectation at the table, and the GM violates that expectation, it is going to result in conflict.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You're welcome to accurately describe your own playstyle, but that doesn't absolve it from external judgment. Certainly no more than other playstyles have been repeatedly judged and commented upon. So maybe you can please put down the veiled accusations of "one true wayism" and hold a conversation without resorting to these sort of rhetorical tricks. There's really no need for that.

Well, I am not the one discounting a whole style of play here. I am acknowledging the styles of the other posters, acknowledging their use of agency in their style. I am the one being told my style is a problem. Sure no one is free from criticism. But there is also an issue in these conversations when people just tear down your style, especially when they do so in a way that seems to ignore how huge swaths of gamers play the game. Literally every sandbox player I have asked has told me, the GM saying the brother is dead, is totally fine, not a problem. So if you do want to sit in judgment of a playstyle, I think it is odd to do so as you ignore the widespread sensibilities of those who engage that style.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I still don't think that is always true even in your style of sandbox gaming as you make it out to be. I still think that there would be people who would have a problem with it if they encountered this, potentially myself included. I am not discounting here that there would be players and GMs who are fine with this, but let's not pretend that every player would be happy with this sort of forced outcome of their play agenda for their character.

I didn't say it is always true. But it does seem to be mostly true in my experience. Again, this is a part of the hobby I am pretty familiar with. I am pretty confident in my assessment of it. And yes it is a generalization. I have said many times, there can and will be exceptions (and people are always free to run sandboxes however they want, no one can stop you). But the vast majority of players would not have an issue in this style. And literally no one I have asked about this has said this would be an issue. And reviewing my own campaigns, these kinds of decisions have never led to problems in a sandbox (in savage worlds, the way we run it, it might, but not in a sandbox). Also, even when I do have players that like games like burning wheel, or PbtA (and I do): they are not fanatics, just like I am not a sandbox fanatic. We can bend to the style of play being offered. I think the dick move isn't the gm making an acceptable decision within a given style of play, it is a person coming to a group and demanding their agenda be catered to. I am always willing to adapt to a group's sensibilities. I think that is important. And I don't go to games to argue with people over style. I play with people who are 'chill'. If people start demanding things or getting angry, I seriously do not want them there. If you can be chill, you can play with us. That is pretty much my only rule.

 

[prabe]

I’m about to commit the cardinal sin of rpg discussions. So forgive me in advance. It’s very relevant though and I think our avoidance of this topic is clouding this agency discussion.

when a player is determining a piece of the setting is he roleplaying in that moment? He surely is advocating for his character - but is that roleplaying?

that isn’t to say he isn’t roleplaying in other moments but is he roleplaying in that particular moment?

I think it depends. If the table is doing something like what's in Fate Core and Dresden Files, where the table builds at least the starting setting as part of Session 0, before chargen, then absolutely not--it's worldbuilding. In a situation like the example @pemerton uses, where his character was in a place looking for a thing and (after resolving an action check) it was there, I'm inclined to say that's roleplaying. If the player is using a blank space in the world to make something suitable for their character to emerge from, I think that's more like chargen, though it has at least a whiff of worldbuilding to it.

 

[Aldarc]

More like from the player's perspective within the setting, which is limited by their character. It is a minor distinction, but an important one, because there is this idea of player skill mattering that many sandbox players adhere to (where it isn't considered super important for instance to pretend to be your character, you are just limited in the setting the same way they are----you are experiencing the setting from their POV, but you don't have to feign a lack of real world knowledge). Again this is something of a split I see among sandbox players. Not everyone takes this approach. But it is common enough, that I wouldn't ignore it in this discussion.

Sure, but keep in mind that this play mode you describe of skilled play is not necessarily at odds or conflict with the style of PC protagonism that has also been described where the PC would be free to pursue their own agendas, such as finding their brother, as part of sandbox play.

All I can say is, if you want me to interpret your posts as non-hostile, make a point of not sounding hostile. Maybe you are not intending that to be the vibe of your posts. But I am finding your posts and the posts of others to be aggressive, hostile and attacking. Tone isn't well conveyed by text, so there is always that. But communication is a two way street

Maybe a little good faith then before launching accusations. As @Campbell said, please consider that there's nothing nefarious going on here.

Well, I am not the one discounting a whole style of play here. I am acknowledging the styles of the other posters, acknowledging their use of agency in their style. I am the one being told my style is a problem. Sure no one is free from criticism. But there is also an issue in these conversations when people just tear down your style, especially when they do so in a way that seems to ignore how huge swaths of gamers play the game. Literally every sandbox player I have asked has told me, the GM saying the brother is dead, is totally fine, not a problem. So if you do want to sit in judgment of a playstyle, I think it is odd to do so as you ignore the widespread sensibilities of those who engage that style.

But the vast majority of players would not have an issue in this style. And literally no one I have asked about this has said this would be an issue. And reviewing my own campaigns, these kinds of decisions have never led to problems in a sandbox (in savage worlds, the way we run it, it might, but not in a sandbox).

Sure, and I asked my whole family, a marching band, and a pet adoption agency, and my girlfriend Alberta who lives in Canada, and they all said it would be a dick move. Could we please stop making unverifiable strawpoll arguments like this? It's not IMHO helping move discussion forward or bettering your case. What helps is understanding your perspective on the matter rather than how many people would be okay with it.

I think the dick move isn't the gm making an acceptable decision within a given style of play, it is a person coming to a group and demanding their agenda be catered to. I am always willing to adapt to a group's sensibilities. I think that is important. And I don't go to games to argue with people over style. I play with people who are 'chill'. If people start demanding things or getting angry, I seriously do not want them there. If you can be chill, you can play with us. That is pretty much my only rule.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think it depends. If the table is doing something like what's in Fate Core and Dresden Files, where the table builds at least the starting setting as part of Session 0, before chargen, then absolutely not--it's worldbuilding. In a situation like the example @pemerton uses, where his character was in a place looking for a thing and (after resolving an action check) it was there, I'm inclined to say that's roleplaying. If the player is using a blank space in the world to make something suitable for their character to emerge from, I think that's more like chargen, though it has at least a whiff of worldbuilding to it.

I think I would separate that out more than you have. The character action itself was roleplaying but the mechanical process that determines the outcome (or whatever other outcome generation technique is used) I don’t think going through that process is roleplaying.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, but keep in mind that this play mode you describe of skilled play is not necessarily at odds or conflict with the style of PC protagonism that has also been described where the PC would be free to pursue their own agendas, such as finding their brother, as part of sandbox play.


Maybe a little good faith then before launching accusations. As @Campbell said, please consider that there's nothing nefarious going on here.



Sure, and I asked my whole family, a marching band, and a pet adoption agency, and my girlfriend Alberta who lives in Canada, and they all said it would be a dick move. Could we please stop making unverifiable strawpoll arguments like this? It's not IMHO helping move discussion forward or bettering your case. What helps is understanding your perspective on the matter rather than how many people would be okay with it.


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It’s this kind of post that comes across overly aggressive and hostile. Just FYI