D&D General DM Authority

[Maxperson]

It is fine to play DnD that way, it just isn't DnD... that would mean you aren't playing DnD, so it isn't fine to play DnD that way.

This is really hokey. I mean, if it's fine to play the game that way, do you really need someone else to think you have D&D label to be happy? As long as someone isn't telling me that how I PLAY is wrong, I don't give a crap whether they think I'm playing D&D or not. It just doesn't matter. It only matters what I and my players think.

By stating that you are no longer playing Dungeons and Dragons, you are stating that you have removed the game so far from what it is supposed to be, that it needs a new identity.

Yes.

Therefore you are playing it "wrong", because you are no longer playing the same game.

No. Whether you are or are not playing D&D, they aren't saying that you are playing wrong unless they actually say that you are playing wrong.

If you are playing poker by asking someone if they have a three and they respond with "Go Fish" then you are playing Poker wrong, because you are not playing Poker. I don't understand how this is not so blatantly obvious that we need to be having this conversation. If you tell someone "This is not X" then they are doing X wrong, because if they were doing it right, it would be X.

If poker was a roleplaying game where the rules are flexible and can be changed by the DM at will, you could end up asking for a three and being responded to with go fish and it might still be poker.

 

[Maxperson]

I’m not really familiar with Tunnels and Trolls, so I’m not well positioned to make judgment calls about where that line lies. Nor am I particularly interested in such a thought experiment. The practical example under discussion is D&D as-written, but without a DM. I’d say that’s D&D, and to say it isn’t is awfully exclusionary.

You don't need to know where the line is. I don't think anyone does. You only need to know two things. 1) at some point the game will cease to be D&D. This will happen prior to being identical to Tunnels and Trolls, and 2) the line will vary from person to person, so another person's opinion isn't a declaration that you aren't playing D&D or are playing it wrong, but only an opinion that states where that person's line is.

It's really a big so what. So @Oofta draws the line in a different place than you do. All it is is a difference of opinion and nothing more.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think we disagree at all about this. That's definitely D&D, though it's not a playstyle of D&D that I particularly enjoy.

Which I keep saying.

Which Oofta described as "Not DnD" and "an ad-hoc board game". That is why I called him out. That is why I keep repeating myself and making myself very clear.

And if people are ignoring that to argue something else, that is not my fault.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is really hokey. I mean, if it's fine to play the game that way, do you really need someone else to think you have D&D label to be happy? As long as someone isn't telling me that how I PLAY is wrong, I don't give a crap whether they think I'm playing D&D or not. It just doesn't matter. It only matters what I and my players think.

By they are saying that anyone who plays that way is playing it wrong.

That is literally what it means to say "that is not DnD". It is the exact same as saying "you are playing DnD wrong" because if you were not playing it wrong, they would agree that it is DnD. Which, not to put too fine a point on:

Yes.

You literally jsut agreed with me. You agreed that that is what Oofta did by saying "Not DnD"

No. Whether you are or are not playing D&D, they aren't saying that you are playing wrong unless they actually say that you are playing wrong.

Dude, there is literally no other way that can be taken.

If you say you are playing DnD, and someone else says "No, you are not playing DnD" then one of two things has happened.

1) You are playing something with rules so far removed from DnD that it can no longer be considered DnD

2) They are telling you you are playing DnD wrong.

Since my example included ZERO rule changes, then they would be telling me that I am playing DnD wrong.

If poker was a roleplaying game where the rules are flexible and can be changed by the DM at will, you could end up asking for a three and being responded to with go fish and it might still be poker.

And yet, Poker doesn't have those rules. Seems kind of like the point.

 

[Charlaquin]

You don't need to know where the line is. I don't think anyone does. You only need to know two things. 1) at some point the game will cease to be D&D. This will happen prior to being identical to Tunnels and Trolls,

Agreed.

and 2) the line will vary from person to person, so another person's opinion isn't a declaration that you aren't playing D&D or are playing it wrong, but only an opinion that states where that person's line is.

Here’s where we disagree. Different people will have different opinions about where the line lies, but the line can’t lie in multiple places at once. By saying your opinion is that the line lies in a certain place, you are implicitly calling the opinions of those who think the line lies elsewhere wrong in that assessment.

Now, personally, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that there is no line. But, I try to err on the side of being more inclusive than exclusive with where I draw the line. When I think someone draws the line in an unduly exclusive position, I’m going to call out that as exclusive. Because exclusivity is something I think the hobby needs a whole lot less of.

It's really a big so what. So @Oofta draws the line in a different place than you do. All it is is a difference of opinion and nothing more.

So I think @Oofta is being exclusive. Saying “it’s just an opinion, bro” doesn’t absolve it of that. Maybe Oofta is comfortable with being somewhat exclusive with what they consider to be D&D, and they have the right to be. But I also have the right to point out that it’s exclusive.

 

[Maxperson]

By they are saying that anyone who plays that way is playing it wrong.

They aren't though. This is your misperception of the situation.

That is literally what it means to say "that is not DnD". It is the exact same as saying "you are playing DnD wrong" because if you were not playing it wrong, they would agree that it is DnD. Which, not to put too fine a point on:

Er, no. It just means that playing it that way makes them consider it not to be D&D, not that you are playing D&D wrong. In fact, it's impossible for them to be saying that you're playing D&D wrong, since to them you aren't playing D&D. In order for someone to be telling you that you are playing D&D wrong, they have to think you are playing D&D in the first place.

Dude, there is literally no other way that can be taken.

If you say you are playing DnD, and someone else says "No, you are not playing DnD" then one of two things has happened.

1) You are playing something with rules so far removed from DnD that it can no longer be considered DnD

2) They are telling you you are playing DnD wrong.

False Dichotomies are false.

3) They just view it as not D&D in their opinion, which means that they literally cannot be telling you that you are playing D&D wrong. They have to view what you are doing as D&D in order for them to be saying that you are playing it wrong.

Since my example included ZERO rule changes, then they would be telling me that I am playing DnD wrong.

It's impossible to play D&D without a DM and have no rules changed. The DM is part of the rules. There are dozens, if not hundreds of rules that you have to alter to be randomized or decided as a group, rather than the DM.

 

[Maxperson]

Here’s where we disagree. Different people will have different opinions about where the line lies, but the line can’t lie in multiple places at once. By saying your opinion is that the line lies in a certain place, you are implicitly calling the opinions of those who think the line lies elsewhere wrong in that assessment.

Of course it lies in multiple places at once. The line isn't an objective thing. It's subjective, which means that it will lie in many places simultaneously, depending on who all is trying to discern it.

I will lay good odds that if you, myself, @Oofta and @prabe (first other name I remembered ) all sat down and started changed D&D rules one by one towards Tunnels and Trolls, we'd find four different places where we felt the game switched from D&D to not D&D.

 

[prabe]

It's impossible to play D&D without a DM and have no rules changed. The DM is part of the rules. There are dozens, if not hundreds of rules that you have to alter to be randomized or decided as a group, rather than the DM.

But if there are rules--optional rules, yes, but rules, nonetheless--in the books for playing without a DM, then it's not so impossible as you seem to be claiming.

 

[Maxperson]

But if there are rules--optional rules, yes, but rules, nonetheless--in the books for playing without a DM, then it's not so impossible as you seem to be claiming.

Impossible per default RAW. You have to change a lot of rules to be doing that, even if you are using optional rules to do it.

 

[prabe]

Impossible per default RAW. You have to change a lot of rules to be doing that, even if you are using optional rules to do it.

A) That seems to be moving the goalpoasts, at least slightly.

B) They're using optional rules in the D&D rulebooks to play D&D. It's ... difficult to argue they're not playing D&D.